GAWMiners.com Hash Marketplace- AVOID! (See update)

MrBig

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 15, 2014, 12:41:17 AM

So here is an interesting moral dilemma. It looks like GAW may have sent out 25 MH/s Prime activation codes instead of 1 MH/s. Some users activated them and dumped them on the market. GAW halted withdrawals to sort this out. At the time of this posting the final outcome is not yet known, but in the light of MrGreenHat's problem and other similar incidents, what would be the right solution:

a) let it be as it is - all sales are final, GAW made an error, their problem - just like many in this thread were saying it's the seller's problem if he/she fatfingers the wrong price. Consistent with GAW's stance on user-inflicted pricing errors, right?

or

b) Try to make it how it should have been if the activation code was correct. E.g. confiscate the funds from the proceeds of the 25 MH/s sale and put 1 MH/s back into seller's account. Or remove 24 MH/s from the accounts that haven't sold them yet. But what to do with the purchaser? Take away their cheap Primes and refund? But the purchaser didn't do anything wrong, it wasn't too good to be true, perhaps 20-25% cheaper than usual. Or what if the seller withdrew funds before being caught?

Any other options?

https://hashtalk.org/topic/11685/market-update

Going by their logic here, they screwed up so they should be made to bear the consequences like anybody else.

bitgeek

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 15, 2014, 05:37:04 PM

Quote from: ANTIcentralized on October 15, 2014, 05:09:29 PM

Most commodity markets do not have any kind of "confirmation" period, once an order is placed, it is placed, and you can try to cancel it, but the exchange and your broker will attempt this on a "best effort" basis. I do think that the market is not large enough to really support both bids and offers so only offers (and buyers accepting sellers' offers) will need to remain.

That's not the full picture. At the very least most such exchanges / software tools would have an option (often the only one or the default) to enter price per unit. There is no reason for Zen to use the total price as the basis and it doesn't even show price per unit anywhere in the process. Not to mention that you can't even see your own hashlet in the market, doesn't make sense at all. Poor UI design + target customer base of "people new to mining" = disaster.

Half of what you said here is completely irrelevant to the accusation.
He picked the wrong hashlet and confirmed it. Your hashlet not being visible on the market has nothing to do with it!

Quote

I accidentally clicked on the 70 MH hashlet on accident and typed in the price of what I would sell the 1 MH Zen hashlet for (thinking I was selling my 3rd and last 1 MH zen hashlet).

The real issue here is OP saying he was "fucked over" which in fact is a lie. He fucked himself and blames GAW, which is pathetic.

suchmoon

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Quote from: ANTIcentralized on October 15, 2014, 05:09:29 PM

Most commodity markets do not have any kind of "confirmation" period, once an order is placed, it is placed, and you can try to cancel it, but the exchange and your broker will attempt this on a "best effort" basis. I do think that the market is not large enough to really support both bids and offers so only offers (and buyers accepting sellers' offers) will need to remain.

That's not the full picture. At the very least most such exchanges / software tools would have an option (often the only one or the default) to enter price per unit. There is no reason for Zen to use the total price as the basis and it doesn't even show price per unit anywhere in the process. Not to mention that you can't even see your own hashlet in the market, doesn't make sense at all. Poor UI design + target customer base of "people new to mining" = disaster.

ANTIcentralized

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 15, 2014, 07:31:33 AM

Quote from: ANTIcentralized on October 15, 2014, 02:08:23 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 13, 2014, 11:31:29 PM

Quote from: crazy-pilot on October 13, 2014, 10:56:23 PM

When a seller places an offer on the market place they are essentially agreeing to "accept" any bid at the price they are offering. The GAW marketplace is also not a site that people will regularly log into and the same goes with the zen portal as everything is really automated and there are no setting to adjust, and nothing to really get an update on. All you really have to do is withdraw your money every so often assuming that you do have this set to automatically happen. If a seller needs to confirm a sale then he could potentially delay a sale long enough to see how the difficulty will change, potentially making a sale at a certain price more or less attractive to him. If a sale is not attractive then he cancels the order and the buyer looses out, if the sale is more attractive, then by default it is now less attractive to the buyer, and the seller confirms the sell and the buyer looses.

There could be reasonable timeframe, e.g. 24 hours to confirm or the sale is auto-cancelled, and a rating system to deal with deadbeats.

I don't like it at all, I'd much prefer an "exchange" interface, but a lot of posters here and on HT seem to be convinced that Zen marketplace is more comparable to e.g. eBay (both by function and by the fee amount) and not to e.g. Cryptsy. And on places like eBay the seller makes the final decision whether to deliver the product to a specific buyer, so it seems appropriate to have the same kind on seller protection on Zen.

This would still not deal with the issue of people not having a reason to log into the account very often. If you must confirm a sale then you must log in every day just to check if an order is filled or not.

I think it is stupid to make the seller agree to fill a sale after they have already offered their hashlets for sale. The buyer wants to know for sure they will be able to buy the hashlets and will not want to participate in a matketplace if they may have to wait several days just to find a seller that will confirm a sale.

I agree. I'm just following the logic of claims that the marketplace is "eBay-like". It shouldn't be. It's a commodity market, not a flea market. Anyway, I'm more interested now in how the issue with GAW fatfingering the wrong MH/s (see a couple of posts up) will be resolved, and how the resolution compares to the issue of users fatfingering the wrong selling price.

I think this really comes down to that the OP was not paying attention to detail. He placed an order below where he wanted to and ended up having to pay for it.

Most commodity markets do not have any kind of "confirmation" period, once an order is placed, it is placed, and you can try to cancel it, but the exchange and your broker will attempt this on a "best effort" basis. I do think that the market is not large enough to really support both bids and offers so only offers (and buyers accepting sellers' offers) will need to remain.

suchmoon

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Quote from: ANTIcentralized on October 15, 2014, 02:08:23 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 13, 2014, 11:31:29 PM

Quote from: crazy-pilot on October 13, 2014, 10:56:23 PM

When a seller places an offer on the market place they are essentially agreeing to "accept" any bid at the price they are offering. The GAW marketplace is also not a site that people will regularly log into and the same goes with the zen portal as everything is really automated and there are no setting to adjust, and nothing to really get an update on. All you really have to do is withdraw your money every so often assuming that you do have this set to automatically happen. If a seller needs to confirm a sale then he could potentially delay a sale long enough to see how the difficulty will change, potentially making a sale at a certain price more or less attractive to him. If a sale is not attractive then he cancels the order and the buyer looses out, if the sale is more attractive, then by default it is now less attractive to the buyer, and the seller confirms the sell and the buyer looses.

There could be reasonable timeframe, e.g. 24 hours to confirm or the sale is auto-cancelled, and a rating system to deal with deadbeats.

I don't like it at all, I'd much prefer an "exchange" interface, but a lot of posters here and on HT seem to be convinced that Zen marketplace is more comparable to e.g. eBay (both by function and by the fee amount) and not to e.g. Cryptsy. And on places like eBay the seller makes the final decision whether to deliver the product to a specific buyer, so it seems appropriate to have the same kind on seller protection on Zen.

This would still not deal with the issue of people not having a reason to log into the account very often. If you must confirm a sale then you must log in every day just to check if an order is filled or not.

I think it is stupid to make the seller agree to fill a sale after they have already offered their hashlets for sale. The buyer wants to know for sure they will be able to buy the hashlets and will not want to participate in a matketplace if they may have to wait several days just to find a seller that will confirm a sale.

I agree. I'm just following the logic of claims that the marketplace is "eBay-like". It shouldn't be. It's a commodity market, not a flea market. Anyway, I'm more interested now in how the issue with GAW fatfingering the wrong MH/s (see a couple of posts up) will be resolved, and how the resolution compares to the issue of users fatfingering the wrong selling price.

ANTIcentralized

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 13, 2014, 11:31:29 PM

Quote from: crazy-pilot on October 13, 2014, 10:56:23 PM

When a seller places an offer on the market place they are essentially agreeing to "accept" any bid at the price they are offering. The GAW marketplace is also not a site that people will regularly log into and the same goes with the zen portal as everything is really automated and there are no setting to adjust, and nothing to really get an update on. All you really have to do is withdraw your money every so often assuming that you do have this set to automatically happen. If a seller needs to confirm a sale then he could potentially delay a sale long enough to see how the difficulty will change, potentially making a sale at a certain price more or less attractive to him. If a sale is not attractive then he cancels the order and the buyer looses out, if the sale is more attractive, then by default it is now less attractive to the buyer, and the seller confirms the sell and the buyer looses.

There could be reasonable timeframe, e.g. 24 hours to confirm or the sale is auto-cancelled, and a rating system to deal with deadbeats.

I don't like it at all, I'd much prefer an "exchange" interface, but a lot of posters here and on HT seem to be convinced that Zen marketplace is more comparable to e.g. eBay (both by function and by the fee amount) and not to e.g. Cryptsy. And on places like eBay the seller makes the final decision whether to deliver the product to a specific buyer, so it seems appropriate to have the same kind on seller protection on Zen.

This would still not deal with the issue of people not having a reason to log into the account very often. If you must confirm a sale then you must log in every day just to check if an order is filled or not.

I think it is stupid to make the seller agree to fill a sale after they have already offered their hashlets for sale. The buyer wants to know for sure they will be able to buy the hashlets and will not want to participate in a matketplace if they may have to wait several days just to find a seller that will confirm a sale.

suchmoon

legendary

Activity: 3654

Merit: 8909

https://bpip.org

So here is an interesting moral dilemma. It looks like GAW may have sent out 25 MH/s Prime activation codes instead of 1 MH/s. Some users activated them and dumped them on the market. GAW halted withdrawals to sort this out. At the time of this posting the final outcome is not yet known, but in the light of MrGreenHat's problem and other similar incidents, what would be the right solution:

a) let it be as it is - all sales are final, GAW made an error, their problem - just like many in this thread were saying it's the seller's problem if he/she fatfingers the wrong price. Consistent with GAW's stance on user-inflicted pricing errors, right?

or

b) Try to make it how it should have been if the activation code was correct. E.g. confiscate the funds from the proceeds of the 25 MH/s sale and put 1 MH/s back into seller's account. Or remove 24 MH/s from the accounts that haven't sold them yet. But what to do with the purchaser? Take away their cheap Primes and refund? But the purchaser didn't do anything wrong, it wasn't too good to be true, perhaps 20-25% cheaper than usual. Or what if the seller withdrew funds before being caught?

Any other options?

https://hashtalk.org/topic/11685/market-update

suchmoon

legendary

Activity: 3654

Merit: 8909

https://bpip.org

Quote from: crazy-pilot on October 13, 2014, 10:56:23 PM

When a seller places an offer on the market place they are essentially agreeing to "accept" any bid at the price they are offering. The GAW marketplace is also not a site that people will regularly log into and the same goes with the zen portal as everything is really automated and there are no setting to adjust, and nothing to really get an update on. All you really have to do is withdraw your money every so often assuming that you do have this set to automatically happen. If a seller needs to confirm a sale then he could potentially delay a sale long enough to see how the difficulty will change, potentially making a sale at a certain price more or less attractive to him. If a sale is not attractive then he cancels the order and the buyer looses out, if the sale is more attractive, then by default it is now less attractive to the buyer, and the seller confirms the sell and the buyer looses.

There could be reasonable timeframe, e.g. 24 hours to confirm or the sale is auto-cancelled, and a rating system to deal with deadbeats.

I don't like it at all, I'd much prefer an "exchange" interface, but a lot of posters here and on HT seem to be convinced that Zen marketplace is more comparable to e.g. eBay (both by function and by the fee amount) and not to e.g. Cryptsy. And on places like eBay the seller makes the final decision whether to deliver the product to a specific buyer, so it seems appropriate to have the same kind on seller protection on Zen.

crazy-pilot

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SmartFi - EARN, LEND & TRADE

Quote from: suchmoon on October 11, 2014, 07:35:04 PM

Quote from: btc-facebook on October 11, 2014, 06:53:07 PM

There is really not enough demand so that it would make sense to have bids listed on their exchange/marketplace/whatever you want to call it. Having bids listed would result in sellers selling for much less then what their hashlets are worth and GAW would have a hard time selling directly to the customer in the first place.

How do you know how much demand is there and how much would be "enough"? And how someone placing a buy order would force a seller to sell at a lower price? Sellers place "sell" orders, buyers place "buy" orders, sale occurs if they meet. As it is now, sellers place "sell" orders in the dark, if they guess the demand or make a horrid snafu, they might sell. Why would more transparency be a bad thing here - I don't get it.

But as I said above, if the "exchange" logic is not acceptable, there is no reason to NOT allow the seller to back out of the transaction, seller's fault or not. A simple "Accept" or "Decline" option after the buyer puts money into escrow would solve most of these "fat finger" or "brain fart" issues.

As for GAW sales, they get 10% of each marketplace sale so making it work properly would help with that too.

When a seller places an offer on the market place they are essentially agreeing to "accept" any bid at the price they are offering. The GAW marketplace is also not a site that people will regularly log into and the same goes with the zen portal as everything is really automated and there are no setting to adjust, and nothing to really get an update on. All you really have to do is withdraw your money every so often assuming that you do have this set to automatically happen. If a seller needs to confirm a sale then he could potentially delay a sale long enough to see how the difficulty will change, potentially making a sale at a certain price more or less attractive to him. If a sale is not attractive then he cancels the order and the buyer looses out, if the sale is more attractive, then by default it is now less attractive to the buyer, and the seller confirms the sell and the buyer looses.

Come-In-Behind

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This was your fault... and you think GAWminers.com should be held responsible for your stupid mistake?? I hope no one actually listens to OP, such a fucking idiot.

bitgeek

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My hashlet payments are just fine if that's what you're asking.

Mapuo

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Quote from: bitgeek on October 13, 2014, 07:19:26 AM

From hashtalk announcement:

We’ve Added a Confirmation Screen on ZenCloud Sales
We’ve gone to work to ensure every seller has time to double check all the details of their sell order before they list their Hashlets on the marketplace. With the next ZenCloud update, you will see a confirmation screen when you attempt to list your Hashlet for sale. You will have to confirm the sale before your Hashlet is added and can be bought by another user.

But sellers are getting more than just that. Added security is nice, but openness and transparency is just as important. So now, I’m proud to say that…

The Hashlet Marketplace Now Shows Seller Names & Seller’s Custom Message
We’ve reached out to many of you on this feature and the conclusion is clear. You want an active, community driven marketplace that’s very different from traditional stock markets.

Are you paid by GAW?

maku

legendary

Activity: 1288

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That red color you chose to make it more visible harmonizes with your trust.
I could personally congratulate them for abusing thieves like you.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

vip

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👻

GAW has actually scammed me.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gawminers-zencloud-is-a-scam-improperly-deducted-btc-no-reply-from-support-818650

bitgeek

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 251

From hashtalk announcement:

We’ve Added a Confirmation Screen on ZenCloud Sales
We’ve gone to work to ensure every seller has time to double check all the details of their sell order before they list their Hashlets on the marketplace. With the next ZenCloud update, you will see a confirmation screen when you attempt to list your Hashlet for sale. You will have to confirm the sale before your Hashlet is added and can be bought by another user.

But sellers are getting more than just that. Added security is nice, but openness and transparency is just as important. So now, I’m proud to say that…

The Hashlet Marketplace Now Shows Seller Names & Seller’s Custom Message
We’ve reached out to many of you on this feature and the conclusion is clear. You want an active, community driven marketplace that’s very different from traditional stock markets.

suchmoon

legendary

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https://bpip.org

Quote from: btc-facebook on October 11, 2014, 06:53:07 PM

There is really not enough demand so that it would make sense to have bids listed on their exchange/marketplace/whatever you want to call it. Having bids listed would result in sellers selling for much less then what their hashlets are worth and GAW would have a hard time selling directly to the customer in the first place.

How do you know how much demand is there and how much would be "enough"? And how someone placing a buy order would force a seller to sell at a lower price? Sellers place "sell" orders, buyers place "buy" orders, sale occurs if they meet. As it is now, sellers place "sell" orders in the dark, if they guess the demand or make a horrid snafu, they might sell. Why would more transparency be a bad thing here - I don't get it.

But as I said above, if the "exchange" logic is not acceptable, there is no reason to NOT allow the seller to back out of the transaction, seller's fault or not. A simple "Accept" or "Decline" option after the buyer puts money into escrow would solve most of these "fat finger" or "brain fart" issues.

As for GAW sales, they get 10% of each marketplace sale so making it work properly would help with that too.

btc-facebook

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Quote from: suchmoon on October 10, 2014, 08:40:56 PM

Quote from: BTCfan668 on October 10, 2014, 05:15:41 PM

Quote from: suchmoon on October 09, 2014, 10:16:14 PM

Quote from: cinnamon_carter on October 09, 2014, 09:56:20 PM

sadly , sounds the same as if you sold 70 litecoin for the wrong price and someone snatched it up.

It's not quite like that, is it? If you sell LTC at a proper exchange that has decent market depth and proper order matching the worst thing that could happen is that you would sell it at the highest bid price, but not at a 90% or 99% discount as happened with some hashlet sales. But that is not the model Zen chose for its marketplace, i.e. there are no bids, just "for sale" listings. It's more comparable to e.g. eBay or craigslist than to a currency exchange. However on eBay or craigslist the seller has more time to decide to back out of the transaction - perhaps at the expense of bad feedback but still. Zen marketplace seems rushed and poorly designed for its intended use.

The difference is that there are different sizes and types of hashlets and the markets is not deep enough so that this would be possible. Also the differences between the types of hashlets is small enough so that most people will not case what kind they get, only the price and the hashrate, however the types do make a big difference to gaw, so this is why they have the market setup the way they do.

If gaw were to allow the OP to cancel his sale after the offer was filled then the buyer would have an issue with gaw because they would not be able to take advantage of a good deal they found and paid for

An exchange-type model would be driven by supply and demand, if there is no demand AT ALL the seller wouldn't be able to sell, but the OP sold hashlets (albeit at a very very low price), so there is demand. Making buyer bids available wouldn't make it worse than it is now, and in cases where there is demand it would make it much better for both sides. Exchanges routinely deal with hundreds or thousands of different assets, a few types of hashlets shouldn't be a problem. However if GAW prefers to stick with the "marketplace" model and not "exchange" - see below.

Price errors are not "good deals". Yes, it's the sellers fault. No, it's not wrong to allow the seller to cancel the sale in the current Zen marketplace model, which is more like eBay, Amazon, craigslist, or your local flea market, ALL of which allow that. Yes, the buyer would be unhappy. There are ways to deal with that too, if GAW wanted to make this a civilized marketplace. E.g. non-refundable listing or transaction fees.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that it's not necessary to invent anything new - there are proven models that work, and GAW also has the advantage to learn from mistakes of others. Instead they're choosing to make their own mistakes and punt the responsibility on users. Not cool.

There is really not enough demand so that it would make sense to have bids listed on their exchange/marketplace/whatever you want to call it. Having bids listed would result in sellers selling for much less then what their hashlets are worth and GAW would have a hard time selling directly to the customer in the first place.

I believe that the OP did have the option of canceling his order however it was filled too quickly for him to be able to cancel. Buyers have the option of sorting by price per MH so someone likely had sorted by this way, saw his order and quickly purchased.

I have also sold on gaw and it takes a lot to create a sell order, you have to click several times, so the OP was either not paying attention to what he was doing or is trying to scam GAW to give him a refund (while keeping the buy order on his other account)

eoakland

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Quote from: MrGreenHat on October 10, 2014, 05:14:18 PM

Im surprised no one is upset about the fact that they have dropped prices on ONLY the hashlets that can be sold in the marketplace by about $2 for each one. Now, anyone who was trying to sell their hashlet and get a decent amount back for it can expect to get even less. Is it not obvious to anyone but me what these guys are doing?

"Everything changes in October"....yep, our ROI. I have been trying to dump my account for a bit. I have been upset by the NiceHash fiasco.

Xandrah

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Pool Owner

Quote from: donpablo on October 11, 2014, 04:58:46 AM

I went to the ATM to withdraw $1500 but accidentally lost it..

Now who is the dumb ass here.. me or the bank...?

+1

donpablo

newbie

Activity: 43

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I went to the ATM to withdraw $1500 but accidentally lost it..

Now who is the dumb ass here.. me or the bank...?

Topic: GAWMiners.com Hash Marketplace- AVOID! (See update) (Read 8068 times)