George Carlin describes today's world eloquently...

FredericBastiat

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitterTea on October 27, 2011, 09:23:30 AM

"As slaves, we are born into slavery and and if we do something that harms the slaveowner, he will defend himself. In the example of the slave who ran away, he ended up getting whipped. Opting out is not available as a choice on the plantation."

Hawker fails to grasp the concept of analogy in 3, 2, 1...

Either Hawker likes being a slave, or he is somehow benefitted by society giving him privileges (goods or services) which he acquired with little or any effort. If on the other hand his effort starts to exceed the benefits received, I'll bet he'd start complaining, or find a way to use the law to even the score (voting/lobbying).

"As soon as the injured classes have recovered their political rights, their first thought is not to abolish plunder (this would suppose them to possess enlightenment, which they cannot have), but to organize against the other classes, and to their own detriment, a system of reprisals—as if it was necessary, before the reign of justice arrives, that all should undergo a cruel retribution—some for their iniquity and some for their ignorance.

It would be impossible, therefore, to introduce into society a greater change and a greater evil than this—the conversion of the law into an instrument of plunder." -- Frederic Bastiat.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: BitterTea on October 27, 2011, 12:55:30 PM

Quote from: Hawker on October 27, 2011, 09:32:56 AM

Its not an analogy bittertea - its real life. The guy thought that he could opt out of the requirement to pay car insurance. The law thought otherwise. Guess who won?

The slave thought that he could opt out of the requirement to work for free. The law thought otherwise. Guess who won?

Yup. I'm off to Turkey for a long weekend and while I'm being given a massage in the hotel, I will be thinking of you slaving away in the cotton fields. You poor boy - I do hope you master doesn't whip you too much when he finds out you have been wasting his time posting on Internet forums.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 27, 2011, 09:32:56 AM

Its not an analogy bittertea - its real life. The guy thought that he could opt out of the requirement to pay car insurance. The law thought otherwise. Guess who won?

The slave thought that he could opt out of the requirement to work for free. The law thought otherwise. Guess who won?

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Its not an analogy bittertea - its real life. The guy thought that he could opt out of the requirement to pay car insurance. The law thought otherwise. Guess who won?

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 27, 2011, 05:08:23 AM

That's like saying "I never agreed to the law of gravity. There has to be something somewhere that says I gave up my right to fly."

Two different meanings of the word law. Human laws (created), despite having the same name, are fundamentally different than laws of nature (discovered).

Quote from: Hawker on October 27, 2011, 05:08:23 AM

As humans, we are born into societies and and if we do something that harms the society, it will defend itself. In the example of the guy without car insurance, he ended up paying his fine. Opting out is not available as a choice in court.

"As slaves, we are born into slavery and and if we do something that harms the slaveowner, he will defend himself. In the example of the slave who ran away, he ended up getting whipped. Opting out is not available as a choice on the plantation."

Hawker fails to grasp the concept of analogy in 3, 2, 1...

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Bind on October 27, 2011, 04:55:26 AM

Quote from: Hawker on October 27, 2011, 04:03:50 AM

Bind, you are kidding yourself. There has never and will never be a legal system where you can opt out of obeying the law.

I understand your stance on things.

I simply disagree.

What binds us to those statutes ?

Give me something ... anything other than, "because big bad men with guns said so", or "thats what you are supposed to do", or "because thats how it is".

I can not accept those.

There has to be something somewhere stating we must give up our rights and freedom for benefits and privilages, especially when the very law you worship is lying when it says all the stuff to the contrary.

The only possible excuse is that our entire existance is a complete illusion, that we truly have no freedom or liberty at all, its a huge Matrix of lies and deceipt meant only to give us the appearance of freedom and liberty, and we are no different than the slaves and subjects of old.

I refuse to accept that without anything ... even one line of writing somewhere canceling out the declaration of independance, the constitution/bill of rights, the maixims of law, the universal declaration of human rights, etc.

That's like saying "I never agreed to the law of gravity. There has to be something somewhere that says I gave up my right to fly."

As humans, we are born into societies and and if we do something that harms the society, it will defend itself. In the example of the guy without car insurance, he ended up paying his fine. Opting out is not available as a choice in court.

Bind

sr. member

Activity: 385

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 27, 2011, 04:03:50 AM

Bind, you are kidding yourself. There has never and will never be a legal system where you can opt out of obeying the law.

I understand your stance on things.

I simply disagree.

What binds us to those statutes ?

Give me something ... anything other than, "because big bad men with guns said so", or "thats what you are supposed to do", or "because thats how it is".

I can not accept those.

There has to be something somewhere stating we must give up our rights and freedom for benefits and privilages, especially when the very law you worship is lying when it says all the stuff to the contrary.

The only possible excuse is that our entire existance is a complete illusion, that we truly have no freedom or liberty at all, its a huge Matrix of lies and deceipt meant only to give us the appearance of freedom and liberty, and we are no different than the slaves and subjects of old.

I refuse to accept that without anything ... even one line of writing somewhere canceling out the declaration of independance, the constitution/bill of rights, the maixims of law, the universal declaration of human rights, etc.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Bind, you are kidding yourself. There has never and will never be a legal system where you can opt out of obeying the law.

Bind

sr. member

Activity: 385

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 25, 2011, 03:01:45 AM

Acknowledging reality is the first step to changing it. Its interesting that you give up when I ask you to suggest an alternative to accepting that your nationality and citizenship something you are born into; you give up and retreat into ad hominem.

the alternative is forcing authority to acknowledge your human rights as a free sovereign flesh and blood man or woman.

you are contracted onto the "Citizen Ship".

your parents contracted you onto it by using their own "Guardian Ship" over you and application for a birth certificate and a social insurance/security number/card, which is voluntary (read the legislation), and you took it over in your teens because you have never disputed it (Maxims of Law in the context of presumption, which states "He who does not deny, admits." and "A presumption will stand good until the contrary is proved.".

so, remove those presumptions, thus removing their presumed authority over you. You are sovereign and the supreme authority over youself, your property, and who you are guardian over.

"... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ..." - Declaration of Independence

revoke, rescind, and disolve all contracts (consent) with the state if you want to be free.

and remember some other consent-related Maxims of Law:

He who is silent appears to consent.
No one is obliged to accept a benefit against his consent.
Consent makes the law. A contract is a law between the parties, which can acquire force only by consent.
Consent makes the law: the terms of a contract, lawful in its purpose, constitute the law as between the parties.
To him consenting no injury is done.
He who consents cannot receive an injury.
Consent removes or obviates a mistake.
He who mistakes is not considered as consenting.
Every consent involves a submission; but a mere submission does not necessarily involve consent.
The contract makes the law.
Agreements give the law to the contract.
They who consent to an act, and they who do it, shall be visited with equal punishment.
Acting and consenting parties are liable to the same punishment.
What is mine cannot be taken away without my consent.
It is better to suffer every wrong or ill, than to consent to it.

otherwise, bow to the Kings, kiss their feet, do what they tell you when they tell you, pay what they tell when they tell you, and never complain about it, because you agreed to it all, and most of all, enjoy your enslavement.

RodeoX

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1147

The revolution will be monetized!

Carlin would point out that he is not describing today's world eloquently, as today he is dead.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: BitterTea on October 24, 2011, 06:42:36 PM

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:35:55 PM

That's exactly how slavery was abolished in most countries. People worked within the system and changed it.

Define "the system".

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:35:55 PM

It no different from inheriting hair colour.

*facepalm*

You say my analogies fail...

You are so fucking brainwashed.

Acknowledging reality is the first step to changing it. Its interesting that you give up when I ask you to suggest an alternative to accepting that your nationality and citizenship something you are born into; you give up and retreat into ad hominem.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: cbeast on October 24, 2011, 06:53:09 PM

It's funny, but I was going to write about this Carlin bit right when I ran into this post earlier. Atlas and I seem to be on the same wavelength, but with inverse phasing and opposing direction.

Either he's not Atlas, or Atlas has improved in his ability to communicate in a very short time.

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1006

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

It's funny, but I was going to write about this Carlin bit right when I ran into this post earlier. Atlas and I seem to be on the same wavelength, but with inverse phasing and opposing direction.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:35:55 PM

That's exactly how slavery was abolished in most countries. People worked within the system and changed it.

Define "the system".

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:35:55 PM

It no different from inheriting hair colour.

*facepalm*

You say my analogies fail...

You are so fucking brainwashed.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: BitterTea on October 24, 2011, 06:19:13 PM

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:08:51 PM

The legal system you are born into can't be changed.

Why? Says who?

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:08:51 PM

You can improve it by, for example, abolishing slavery.

So, those who despise slavery must work within the system that created, supports, and profits from slavery... in order to end slavery? Think about this idea for more than a few seconds.

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:08:51 PM

But you can't decide "The legal system didn't apply to me." It does.

I'm not saying it doesn't. It does because if I act otherwise, I will be murdered and my murderers will be celebrated. I am saying "nobody should be bound by a contract to which they did not agree".

That's exactly how slavery was abolished in most countries. People worked within the system and changed it. The US is not going away and I doubt you want to leave your country so I suggest you accept that any change has to be done on the basis of persuading people its a good idea.

Being part of a society as a result of being born into it is not a contract. It no different from inheriting hair colour. If you have some idea as to how people could change that fact, I'd be interested to read it.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:08:51 PM

The legal system you are born into can't be changed.

Why? Says who?

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:08:51 PM

You can improve it by, for example, abolishing slavery.

So, those who despise slavery must work within the system that created, supports, and profits from slavery... in order to end slavery? Think about this idea for more than a few seconds.

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 06:08:51 PM

But you can't decide "The legal system didn't apply to me." It does.

I'm not saying it doesn't. It does because if I act otherwise, I will be murdered and my murderers will be celebrated. I am saying "nobody should be bound by a contract to which they did not agree".

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: BitterTea on October 24, 2011, 06:00:38 PM

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 05:56:32 PM

The "should" has no real place in that sentence. Its the nature of life that you can't choose where you are born into. Just like you can't help it if you acquire eye colour from your parents, you can't help but acquire ~~nationality~~ slavery from the circumstances of your birth.

You make this too easy!

Why should some people be born into the bondage of slavery? because people like you allow it

Why should all people be born into the bondage of nation-states? because people like you allow it

The legal system you are born into can't be changed. You can improve it by, for example, abolishing slavery. But you can't decide "The legal system didn't apply to me." It does.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 05:56:32 PM

The "should" has no real place in that sentence. Its the nature of life that you can't choose where you are born into. Just like you can't help it if you acquire eye colour from your parents, you can't help but acquire ~~nationality~~ slavery from the circumstances of your birth.

You make this too easy!

Why should some people be born into the bondage of slavery? because people like you allow it

Why should all people be born into the bondage of nation-states? because people like you allow it

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: BitterTea on October 24, 2011, 05:50:42 PM

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 05:47:00 PM

You are American. Born free in the richest country in the world and you can't change that fact no matter how hard you wish.

How is my relative freedom relevant to the question of whether I should be bound to a document to which I never agreed?

The "should" has no real place in that sentence. Its the nature of life that you can't choose where you are born into. Just like you can't help it if you acquire eye colour from your parents, you can't help but acquire nationality from the circumstances of your birth.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on October 24, 2011, 05:47:00 PM

You are American. Born free in the richest country in the world and you can't change that fact no matter how hard you wish.

How is my relative freedom relevant to the question of whether I should be bound to a document to which I never agreed?

Topic: George Carlin describes today's world eloquently... (Read 4593 times)