Topic: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond - page 6. (Read 39708 times)

as for me: I am included even though I have not received a payment. To be honest I didnt expect this to happen and am quite happy about the sudden resolution!

Nefario said this in his blog:

So it could be that some of the omissions are for people who have received a double payment and did not return it.

I wonder if people who have not received a double payment (meaning, haven't received any payment at all) have also been omitted.

Wow, I have over 50 Shares!

How cool is that. I had claimed 8 Shares per mail, thought I had bought more since my last documentation, but that is where so many.

Happy!  

I'm not in there.  I'm hoping it's because they sold, I had a lot of sell orders up the couple days before GLBSE shutdown. 

Wish Nefario would let us see what we had at closing time...

1HXxASKNBBt5s1dtEmBk85aFQB2iyn8Wik   240


 


can confirm at least in this case info is accurate

I am happy to announce I have received a list of bondholders from Nefario.

However, the problems are not over yet. This list is very incomplete - only 6943 claimed bonds out of 15566 (16000 if you count those held by myself). Also, while it is overall consistent with the direct claims I received, there are some surprising omissions.

I will list here the Bitcoin addresses I received and the corresponding number of bonds (I'm not hashing or anything since this will be public knowledge anyway once I start sending payments); please verify that the address you submitted to GLBSE appears here. If it does not appear, or if there is a major discrepancy in the number of bonds, please let me know (email is still glbse at menirosenfeld dot com, PM can work too) and verify that your GLBSE claim has been accepted.

Thanks, but my days of issuing assets on centralized Bitcoin-based exchanges are over. The payment will be with a static list until I can migrate to colored coins (or possibly Open Transactions).

Unless you're wanting to shut down, we have your technical means: https://btct.co/ 

Rumor has it that Nefario has started sending out asset holder data.

I haven't received anything yet but I contacted Nefario and hope to receive the list of PureMining bondholders soon.

I'm also making some progress towards a technical means to disperse payments once I have that list.

By the way, even with the official list I suspect there will be unclaimed bonds, and we haven't picked the charities yet. (I think we can add Bitcoin100 to the list.)

Your points are all good.

I hope that everyone can be patient. 

I don't think it's a scam either. But as is known in the traditional world and as we've seen in Bitcoin, scammers also pay out some amount.

I haven't spoken much publicly but for a long time I've been very critical of GLBSE, both with the concept of having it as a centralized service and with how specifically it was run by Nefario. Which is why I'm involved in the colored coins project (plug: I've completed so far 2 chapters on a paper about the subject.)

I'm sure code has nothing to do with it, if his intentions are basically good it's being held up on the legal front.

Are people really willing to wait that long? This isn't rhetorical, if more people agree with your proposal I'd like to hear it. (A lawsuit will also take an undetermined amount of time in the months or years)

A real company would need upwards of $10M of valuation and a battery of lawyers before making an IPO. If something bad happened they'd have the resources and infrastructure to handle it (and I doubt the solution will look anything like collecting shareholder data and paying them directly). GLBSE was supposed to be a more lightweight platform and we all signed up for something which allows more entrepreneurship but is devoid of some of the comfort of the traditional system.

The first step would be to find a lawyer who can look at you with a straight face when explaining the case, and even after that's done I for one can't afford the $$$ (possibly more than the market cap of PureMining) to pay lawyers to work on it. If a class action were to happen I would however support it.

PureMining has two manifestations - this forum thread and http://bitcoinpuremining.com/. Both solicit claims. Someone who bought PureMining bonds without knowing about either of these has quite frankly screwed himself by not having a clue what he's investing in. Likewise if he didn't care enough about his holdings to bother to check these places when the GLBSE problems unfolded.

Sure, you can argue that this is all happening very quickly (in traditional terms) and someone may not be in the loop of what's happening. In a perfect world someone could "buy and forget" and be sure that he would need no further action to take what is his. But this is not a perfect world, you have to draw the line somewhere - I don't like it and I don't think it's right, but it's the least wrong thing we can do with the hand we were dealt.

Keep in mind that unclaimed bonds will be donated one way or another - while it is not ideal to "volunteer" someone to donating, most people could use being a bit more charitable anyway, so this is not a total loss.

I believe this approach is supported by the Halakha. If someone loses something and has given up the search and the hope of finding it, it is considered "Hefker" (abandoned) and can be kept by its finder. This appears to describe people who haven't filed claims for their bonds.

I'm not doing a first come, first served claim system. Any reasonable claim is credited. Of course, as time goes by the claims become inherently less reasonable. In case the claims surpass outstanding bonds, I'll probably scale it down. But the actual situation is that so far the amount of claimed bonds is significantly less than the number outstanding.

Bonds aren't defined by their "business" but by their coupon payments. The contingent fact that I do hedge these bonds with a still-running mining arrangement is irrelevant. Nothing is usual while coupons are not being paid.

While coupons are piled up people are not being paid what they were promised. Also, the longer I wait the greater the chance that the coins will be lost or stolen, which I will have to pay out of pocket.

I'm open to input but in the end you'll do what you think is right, and I'll do mine. To me it is clear that traditional duties may or may not apply; I am not convinced that holding on to funds indefinitely is the one true pretender to the fiduciary duty throne.

The PureMining OP is quite long, and one of the reasons is that I wanted to address several contingencies. I should have spent much more time thinking and writing about those contingency plans; unfortunately, I considered a GLBSE shutdown distant enough to only warrant the following provision:
If there are several things I hate, one of them is being caught in the crossfire. On one front I have people complaining about issuers doing nothing, and on the other about issuers "doing this claim system thing". You can't please everyone.

Thank you for your concern but I very much doubt someone who didn't bother to file a claim would bother filing a lawsuit. If such a lawsuit would go through there is something very wrong indeed with the world.

The fact that he has paid out a ton of BTC to settle balances leads me to believe it's not a scam.  I believe he's either incompetent and it really is taking him this long to code it all, or he's under pressure from an outside entity to delay things.

After he's been given ample time (3 months?  6 months?)  All the asset issuers should file a class action lawsuit against Nefario and we'd wait until that was completed before giving up and screwing everyone over that doesn't have a bitcointalk account.  In theory such a lawsuit would be used to compel Nefario to divulge the database required to operate our issues, or at least to force him to finish up whatever programming he has to do in order to complete the shutdown.

Think about what a real company would do that had real shares in the wild if say, the NYSE shutdown and refused to give up the info... You really think they'd fall back to a first come, first served claim system?  That's just asking for trouble.

In the meantime, all these assets should be continuing business as usual.  After all, not much should have changed, right?  Their shareholders can't swap shares.  Contracts can't be changed... I can't think of much else that would stop any of the issuers from just piling up dividends for a few months?

Heck, even after GLBSE releases the lists, I'm still going to have to pile up dividends for any unclaimed shares, just in case they're late to the game and realize 6 months down the road that GLBSE went poof.  It's called fiduciary duty.

Not targeting you specifically, I'm seeing a lot of assets doing this claim system thing...  Any issuer that actually goes through with the claims system process is just going to open themselves up to a shareholder/bondholder lawsuit later.  I'm worried about you guys!

How do you think I should proceed? The GLBSE shutdown was completely botched. Data about asset holders is withheld from issuers for no apparent reason. Even something as simple as mailing asset holders with their up-to-date portfolio - which would solve problems such as yours, which is undoubtedly quite common - hasn't been done. The double-payment thing was simply idiotic. Weeks have passed without any communication.

It is not clear that the data will ever be given. Without the data the options are fairly limited, and while we're waiting we get nonsense like this popping up. Referring to what I'm trying to do as "punishing" you is unfair.

Anyway, to answer your question - what you should do is send me an email with as much information as you can (approximate last amount, approximate highest ever held amount, how much do you usually invest into each of these things, whether you tend to hold or frequently trade, etc.)

Don't make things up. As mentioned, even if you really can't recall anything about PureMining in particular, information about your general trading habits are useful. It doesn't need to be 100% accurate.

I'm making some effort to screen potentially fraudulent claims. Unclaimed bonds will go to charity so you can assume your choices are to try to claim or to forfeit to charity. You can also give input about your preferred charities. I had the idea to use some of the excess as bonus to claimants but now I'm not sure it's a good idea.

I did research into a ton of securities on GLBSE.  I owned a ton of different securities on GLBSE.  My strategy was to get some of everything that looked legit.

I may have had some PureMining when it closed.  I may not have.  I honestly can't remember.  The fact that I am subscribed to the thread leads me to believe that I had some.  (I subscribed to all the threads I had assets in.)

But it sounds to me like you're going to punish me for not remembering.  So how do you think I should proceed?

Do I make a claim now, and just make something up?  ...only to be called a liar later when it's not 100% accurate.

Or do I just risk that maybe I sold all my PureMining and don't remember?  ...and let everyone else jack my stuff.


Cheers.

Seconded, in a rather tardy fashion.

I remind everyone to send their claims to my email: glbse at menirosenfeld dot com (if they have not already done so). I still doubt I will get the data from GLBSE, meaning a direct claim could be the only way to get payment.

Also note that as time goes by, it's likely the signal to noise ratio in the claims will worsen, so claims submitted from now on will be subject to more scrutiny, and soon I will stop accepting claims at all.

Since acting by GLBSE data will be by far superior, if available, to direct claims, I will wait some more before making real payments. I might make a test payment soon.

Also, either way it looks like not all outstanding bonds will be claimed. I propose that a bit of the difference will be paid out as a bonus to bondholders, and the rest will be donated to one or several charities. Some possibilities include:

The Singularity Institute
The Bitcoin Foundation

Any other suggestions / opinions on previous suggestions? Smaller noteworthy projects can be considered too.

Tomorrow = 1 week..... counting the days!!!!! 

Naelr

It wasn't too bad, once I got the data in a spreadsheet most of the hashing work was automated. (I did the concatenation in Excel, generated some random numbers in Mathematica, and wrote a small C# app to hash each entry.)

Meni,

I appreciate everything your trying to do... and I found my hash so thank you for spending the time going through that I am sure it was a bit of a pain in the butt.

Naelr

There are a few issues with that, I'll work on a hash-based list either tomorrow or in ~1.5 weeks. In any case I will make a test payment before any real payments, and the sentiment currently seems to be towards not acting on my own records yet. And FWIW I got your claim.

Edit: Or today. Here is a list of SHA-256 hashes of "EMAIL ADDRESS AMOUNT" (without quotations). For example if your email is [email protected], address is 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa and amount is 50 bonds it will be the hash of "[email protected] 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa 50", which is 54ec5b1d82bff5df257a88f1cc38ac1ecea55d8a98fe3bbe191e9375285c5274.

In one case I used the forum username rather than email address. For people who have mentioned several numbers in their claim, I used one of the numbers.

There are also some dummy hashes to conceal the actual number of claims (disclosing it has privacy and security implications).

This list will not be updated frequently.

(Removed on Nov 27 2012 as a privacy measure)