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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1024. (Read 2032266 times)

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
August 17, 2014, 03:57:44 PM
...

But why would they all agree when doing so would destroy the integrity of their stake? ...

Because they could've just sold their stake. I believe the paper points that out.
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
August 17, 2014, 03:57:09 PM
read the paper PeterR and Justus referenced.

the "truth" in a POW system is determined by the objective laws of thermodynamics which are fundamental laws that exist outside the POW system.  it cannot be gamed by the stakeholders.

the "truth" in a POS system is not determined by any such laws outside its own system.  it is self referencing, aka an echo chamber, of whatever the stakeholders "want" to be the truth, whether objective or not.  it can be gamed by the stakeholders, if they all agree.

But why would they all agree when doing so would destroy the integrity of their stake? As we saw recently  getting them to agree on such a change is near impossible and will only get more difficult as the system gets bigger any many forgers are companies that have their businesses built on top of the system.

Are you saying that AI will never be possible? Because that is a self referencing system.

POW is a better and more fair method of distributing new coins, but that is all.

Once bitcoin is widely distributed and the majority of block rewards comes from fees and not minting, then switching to a POS system seems fine.

Both systems are identical on how security is created, they only differ in who gets to vote. In POW votes are allocated based on how much electricity one consumes (assuming everyone has access to the same technology which will be true after ASICs settle down). In POS votes are allocated based on the number of coins held. The concepts of a voting based system are the same.

BTW bitcoin already did a rollback in March 2013, yes it was to correct a bug but the devs looked at the situation and asked miners to abandon the longest chain and build a shorter one. This is possible with POW too... Bitcoin is still based on the laws of men (not thermodynamics), its just that bitcoin aligns the interests of the "voters" in a way to create a rules based system.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
August 17, 2014, 03:54:14 PM
the "truth" in a POW system is determined by the objective laws of thermodynamics which are fundamental laws that exist outside the POW system.  it cannot be gamed by the stakeholders.

the "truth" in a POS system is not determined by any such laws outside its own system.  it is self referencing, aka an echo chamber, of whatever the stakeholders "want" to be the truth, whether objective or not.  it can be gamed by the stakeholders, if they all agree.
I'd add the clarification that PoW only promises that defeating the consensus process is uneconomical, not impossible.

The paper shows that PoS can't even make that promise.

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/bino

SHA-based PoW has shown to be "centralisable" though ...
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
August 17, 2014, 03:33:25 PM
What exactly does this "objective truth" mean?

This reminds me of conversations with my mother.  She believes that her belief system creates reality.  I believe that reality exists independently of myself (although I concede that my belief system influences my perception of reality).  

Here's an example of the objective truth:

Alice and Bob each throw a rock into the lake.  Alice throws hers in first, it makes a splash, and then Bob throws his in.  If this event occurred, then it is objectively true that Alice threw her rock into the lake first.  Even if Bob convinces the world that the opposite happened (because Bob is popular and wealthy), and even if everyone calls Alice a liar, it doesn't change what was objectively true:  Alice threw the rock into the lake first.  

PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion.  

In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

read the paper PeterR and Justus referenced.

the "truth" in a POW system is determined by the objective laws of thermodynamics which are fundamental laws that exist outside the POW system.  it cannot be gamed by the stakeholders.

the "truth" in a POS system is not determined by any such laws outside its own system.  it is self referencing, aka an echo chamber, of whatever the stakeholders "want" to be the truth, whether objective or not.  it can be gamed by the stakeholders, if they all agree.

But why would they all agree when doing so would destroy the integrity of their stake? As we saw recently  getting them to agree on such a change is near impossible and will only get more difficult as the system gets bigger any many forgers are companies that have their businesses built on top of the system. History can be rewritten with pow too, it happened before.

Are you saying that AI will never be possible? Because that is a self referencing system.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
August 17, 2014, 03:26:13 PM
the "truth" in a POW system is determined by the objective laws of thermodynamics which are fundamental laws that exist outside the POW system.  it cannot be gamed by the stakeholders.

the "truth" in a POS system is not determined by any such laws outside its own system.  it is self referencing, aka an echo chamber, of whatever the stakeholders "want" to be the truth, whether objective or not.  it can be gamed by the stakeholders, if they all agree.
I'd add the clarification that PoW only promises that defeating the consensus process is uneconomical, not impossible.

The paper shows that PoS can't even make that promise.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 17, 2014, 03:22:26 PM
In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

A bat and a ball costs $1.10.
A bat costs a dollar more than a ball.  
How much does a ball cost?

Not following how hardware mining vs stake mining answers that any differently.

If you get a certain type of people in a room, they'll come to consensus that a ball costs $0.10.  But it's objectively true that a ball costs $0.05, even if they all disagree.  The point is that what is objectively true is independent of our opinions.  

Sure but I don't get what that has to do with distributed consensus systems.

In a PoS system, there's no tether to physical reality.  There's no one in the room screaming:

"A ball costs $0.05, a bat costs a dollar more ($1.05) so a bat and a ball costs $0.05 + $1.05 = $1.10 you idiots!  You all fell victim to your cognitive bias!!"

PoS is an echo chamber like Cypherdoc said, and although consensus might be achieved, it may have no bearing on reality.  PoW is the tether to the physical world.  PoW mining is the objective guy in the room "proving mathematically" with chalk and a blackboard that a ball costs $0.05 until everyone is forced to concede!
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 17, 2014, 03:06:25 PM
What exactly does this "objective truth" mean?

This reminds me of conversations with my mother.  She believes that her belief system creates reality.  I believe that reality exists independently of myself (although I concede that my belief system influences my perception of reality).  

Here's an example of the objective truth:

Alice and Bob each throw a rock into the lake.  Alice throws hers in first, it makes a splash, and then Bob throws his in.  If this event occurred, then it is objectively true that Alice threw her rock into the lake first.  Even if Bob convinces the world that the opposite happened (because Bob is popular and wealthy), and even if everyone calls Alice a liar, it doesn't change what was objectively true:  Alice threw the rock into the lake first.  

PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion.  

In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

read the paper PeterR and Justus referenced.

the "truth" in a POW system is determined by the objective laws of thermodynamics which are fundamental laws that exist outside the POW system.  it cannot be gamed by the stakeholders.

the "truth" in a POS system is not determined by any such laws outside its own system.  it is self referencing, aka an echo chamber, of whatever the stakeholders "want" to be the truth, whether objective or not.  it can be gamed by the stakeholders, if they all agree.
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
August 17, 2014, 02:57:02 PM
In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

A bat and a ball costs $1.10.
A bat costs a dollar more than a ball. 
How much does a ball cost?

If you get a certain type of people in a room, they'll come to consensus that a ball costs $0.10.  But it's objectively true that a ball costs $0.05, even if they all disagree.  

Sure but I don't get what that has to do with distributed consensus systems.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 17, 2014, 02:53:58 PM
In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

A bat and a ball costs $1.10.
A bat costs a dollar more than a ball. 
How much does a ball cost?

Not following how hardware mining vs stake mining answers that any differently.

If you get a certain type of people in a room, they'll come to consensus that a ball costs $0.10.  But it's objectively true that a ball costs $0.05, even if they all disagree.  The point is that what is objectively true is independent of our opinions.  
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
August 17, 2014, 02:52:46 PM
In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

A bat and a ball costs $1.10.
A bat costs a dollar more than a ball. 
How much does a ball cost?

Not following how hardware mining vs stake mining answers that any differently.
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
August 17, 2014, 02:46:39 PM
Maybe this paper prove the point, I don't know, I will read it. But what I know for sure is that what you are saying doesn't prove anything.

You are saying that somehow a miner is ontologically different than a holder, that a miner's opinion is the truth whereas a holder's opinion is an opinion. It's a very brittle argument.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 17, 2014, 02:45:26 PM
In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

A bat and a ball costs $1.10.
A bat costs a dollar more than a ball. 
How much does a ball cost?
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
August 17, 2014, 02:41:02 PM
What exactly does this "objective truth" mean?

This reminds me of conversations with my mother.  She believes that her belief system creates reality.  I believe that reality exists independently of myself (although I concede that my belief system influences my perception of reality). 

Here's an example of the objective truth:

Alice and Bob each throw a rock into the lake.  Alice throws hers in first, it makes a splash, and then Bob throws his in.  If this event occurred, then it is objectively true that Alice threw her rock into the lake first.  Even if Bob convinces the world that the opposite happened (because Bob is popular and wealthy), and even if everyone calls Alice a liar, it doesn't change what was objectively true:  Alice threw the rock into the lake first.   

PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion. 

In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
August 17, 2014, 02:40:20 PM
PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion. 
You are aware that miners can rewrite history too, right?

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
August 17, 2014, 02:38:46 PM
it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus
I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..


I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.
So you think miners' opinion is the objective truth?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 17, 2014, 02:34:30 PM
What exactly does this "objective truth" mean?

This reminds me of conversations with my mother.  She believes that her belief system creates reality.  I believe that reality exists independently of myself (although I concede that my belief system influences my perception of reality). 

Here's an example of the objective truth:

Alice and Bob each throw a rock into the lake.  Alice throws hers in first, it makes a splash, and then Bob throws his in.  If this event occurred, then it is objectively true that Alice threw her rock into the lake first.  Even if Bob convinces the world that the opposite happened (because Bob is popular and wealthy), and even if everyone calls Alice a liar, it doesn't change what was objectively true:  Alice threw the rock into the lake first.   

PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion. 
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1002
August 17, 2014, 02:21:44 PM
it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus
I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..


I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

What exactly does this "objective truth" mean? In bitcoin the economic majority can just buy more hash power. Either you buy hash power or you buy stake. The main difference being buying stake can be way harder and more expensive while leaving you with more incentive to see your holdings  grow in value rather then depreciate

i was going to say what Mr.e just said... Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
August 17, 2014, 02:20:07 PM
it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus
I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..


I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

What exactly does this "objective truth" mean? In bitcoin the economic majority can just buy more hash power. Either you buy hash power or you buy stake. The main difference being buying stake can be way harder and more expensive while leaving you with more incentive to see your holdings  grow in value rather then depreciate. Just like with bitcoin you can't just create a fork without convincing everyone to use it!
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 17, 2014, 02:05:41 PM
it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus
I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..


I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.
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