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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1185. (Read 2032266 times)

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
January 24, 2014, 01:58:11 AM
...
Bitcoin is not so easily manipulated, no one can naked short bitcoins...
...


Why not? All depends on what trading rules exchanges follow. If bitcoin ends up as a new asset-class in existing commodities-trading infrastructure, how would that be any different than paper-gold trading?

Blockchain is the ultimate truth teller.  Also because large gold holdings are hard to move no one bothers to ask for it.  But a large buyer can simply say "transfer my bitcoins here" and the jig is up if nothing shows up in 10 min.


Indeed, instant settlement and verification of possession prior to shorting are both possible with bitcoin in a credible way. But the behavior of traders would have to change to actually demand/require those things. Even today, people leave their bitcoin on exchanges for extended periods. We have no idea whether Gox is operating fractionally, for example, because people DO NOT actually take delivery of their bitcoins.

And in the scheme of what we're talking about with regard to gold price manipulation via naked shorting by large institutions with ulterior motives, the issue of individual traders demanding settlement is not the point; it's about the big guys deliberately colluding to paint the tape.

legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
January 24, 2014, 01:38:59 AM
...
Bitcoin is not so easily manipulated, no one can naked short bitcoins...
...


Why not? All depends on what trading rules exchanges follow. If bitcoin ends up as a new asset-class in existing commodities-trading infrastructure, how would that be any different than paper-gold trading?

Blockchain is the ultimate truth teller.  Also because large gold holdings are hard to move no one bothers to ask for it.  But a large buyer can simply say "transfer my bitcoins here" and the jig is up if nothing shows up in 10 min.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
January 24, 2014, 01:37:45 AM
Yer dreaming. I watch these shows on cable TV of these schmucks working their asses off mining gold in AK, the Yukon and even offshore to mine gold at $1200/oz.  if the price doubles, every swinging dick with a shovel and a gleam in his eye will be out there with them. Gold WAS money. real money. free market money. It's easily recognizable, fungible, divisible portable and scarce. Bitcoin is MORE fungible, recognizable, divisible, portable and scarce. There's enough gold on the planet to cover the surface eight feet thick. You wanna dig it out of one hole, put it in another and pay someone to guard it. Good luck with that. It was awesome 18th century technology, but this is the 21st century.

We are never going back to a gold standard. I hate to agree with the asshole Kenesians, but they're right on this. You might use it like Goat does to trade in some mountain village in Burma, but in the real world you live in, it's good for speaker plugs and trinkets. Five thousand years was a good run. It's over. over. We used horses for five thousand years too.  

+1


Yep. Took me a long time to see that too. The reason why gold cannot be a principal currency in daily use ever again is because it is so unwieldy for face-to-face transactions and can't be used for remote transactions, which are most, by value in a modern economy. A gold-backed debit card is very nice, but who can trust someone else with their gold? Even the German government can't get its gold back.

So fiat is needed, was needed until recently when crypto was invented.

+1
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
January 24, 2014, 01:32:28 AM
...
Bitcoin is not so easily manipulated, no one can naked short bitcoins...
...


Why not? All depends on what trading rules exchanges follow. If bitcoin ends up as a new asset-class in existing commodities-trading infrastructure, how would that be any different than paper-gold trading?
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
January 24, 2014, 01:08:16 AM
Some info about Gold levels here:

http://harveyorgan.blogspot.no


22. of January
Quote
In Summary:
i) the total dealer inventory of gold settles tonight  at  a very dangerously low  level of only 11.512 tonnes. Dealer gold has never ever been to this level!!

i)  a) JPMorgan's customer inventory rests tonight at  1,371,956.437 (42.673) tonnes)

ii  b)  JPMorgan's dealer account rests tonight at  87,071.35 oz (2.708 tonnes)


iii) the 3 major bullion banks have collectively only 8.881 tonnes of gold left in their dealer account.(JPMorgan, HSBC,Scotia)

Quote
Since JPMorgan has stopped 97% of all issuance, if you remove them from the big three, then we have HSBC and Scotia having an inventory of only 6.173 tonnes of gold which must settle upon 3.880 tonnes of gold still outstanding.

The fun will begin in February especially if we have a large amount of physical gold standing!!

Manipulation is still happening.. I was in the middle of a long post about the history of gold the last few years from cot report positioning to margin requirements changing to screw over long positions.. anyways Ill leave you to the most convincing chart to show the fed gives free reign to a few banks to short naked until cows come home:

http://www.justthinking.us/12/04/12/manipulation_gold_market

CAnt be more obvious. Every ny open the crims sell at will and then again at 10am pacific when the fatsos are back from lunch and martinis. Anytime there are stoplosses they are there.. since people are long they make money forcing short witj free money.

While this happens:

http://www.pinnacledigest.com/blog/pinnacle-digest/gold-flash-crash-manipulation-gold-market-continues-2014

Expect lower prices.

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
January 23, 2014, 05:05:34 PM
Turns out I underestimated the power of bullshit
I love how gold-bugs are never wrong but it's the real world that's astray because of divine intervention.  Grin

Deus ex machina... or aurum ex machina?

.. the real world is astray because of central bank intervention, that much is obvious ... not sure CB's are 'divine'? maybe in your world?
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 500
📱 CARTESI 📱 INFRASTRUCTURE FOR SCA
January 23, 2014, 03:16:37 PM
Is it happening already?

P.M. Kitco Roundup: Gold Post Sharp Gains, Hits 6-Week High, as Bulls Gain Technical Momentum

http://www.kitco.com/news/2014-01-23/Gold-Post-Sharp-Gains-Hits-6-Week-High-as-Bulls-Gain-Technical-Momentum.html
hero member
Activity: 496
Merit: 500
Spanish Bitcoin trader
January 23, 2014, 02:33:43 PM
Turns out I underestimated the power of bullshit
I love how gold-bugs are never wrong but it's the real world that's astray because of divine intervention.  Grin

Deus ex machina... or aurum ex machina?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
January 23, 2014, 10:46:33 AM
Yer dreaming. I watch these shows on cable TV of these schmucks working their asses off mining gold in AK, the Yukon and even offshore to mine gold at $1200/oz.  if the price doubles, every swinging dick with a shovel and a gleam in his eye will be out there with them. Gold WAS money. real money. free market money. It's easily recognizable, fungible, divisible portable and scarce. Bitcoin is MORE fungible, recognizable, divisible, portable and scarce. There's enough gold on the planet to cover the surface eight feet thick. You wanna dig it out of one hole, put it in another and pay someone to guard it. Good luck with that. It was awesome 18th century technology, but this is the 21st century.

We are never going back to a gold standard. I hate to agree with the asshole Kenesians, but they're right on this. You might use it like Goat does to trade in some mountain village in Burma, but in the real world you live in, it's good for speaker plugs and trinkets. Five thousand years was a good run. It's over. over. We used horses for five thousand years too.  


Yep. Took me a long time to see that too. The reason why gold cannot be a principal currency in daily use ever again is because it is so unwieldy for face-to-face transactions and can't be used for remote transactions, which are most, by value in a modern economy. A gold-backed debit card is very nice, but who can trust someone else with their gold? Even the German government can't get its gold back.

So fiat is needed, was needed until recently when crypto was invented.

Why not look at it in the other direction? Gold doesn't need to be actively used as a currency to be a good asset, why should Bitcoin? All it needs is some sort of "potential" as a currency.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
January 23, 2014, 07:21:26 AM
I really don't have the feeling that without effort this could go on for another five years: Look at Comex inventories, German gold repatriation, Chinese imports, etc, etc... It's very hard for me to figure how the manipulation could even continue beyond 2014 - but who knows which last minute tricks they will get out of their bags...

Don't underestimate the power of bullshit, my friend!

Or as Doug Casey puts it: just because something is inevitable, doesn't mean it is imminent.

Your sentiment reminds me of my own in 2007/2008 - I guess I was in a similar frame of mind; I spent countless hours educating myself on the economic situation, gold, the manipulation, the fiat-system etc. and once the markets started crashing I was utterly convinced that this was it and things were going to move quickly, with hyperinflation setting in and the dollar collapsing withing a year or two. Turns out I underestimated the power of bullshit and the ability of the guardians of the current system to patch it up with loose money & propaganda and kick the can down the road for many years to come. According to my timetable for financial collapse from back then we should long have been well into the hyperinflation stage with all the trouble that brings...alas here we are with the gold price (probably) suppressed down and mainstream media happily chirping about "recovery" and business as usual. This could go on for years, but not forever.

TL;DR: I agree with Goat. There seems to be overwhelming evidence of gold price manipulation since a loooong time. This doesn't mean that the scheme will collapse within a year or two (it might, though), but one day it will. It will be a lot of fun!

We don't know when it will happen - this year? Next year? The year after that?

We don't know what else TPTB have in store, true.

A lot of people are frustrated because they got in way too early. You would have never heard me say economic collapse is "close" in 2007 or 2008.

But for sure we are getting closer now on a weekly basis. The newest tendency (started only in 2014) is that this info is going mainstream now - absolutely stunning, when you think about it.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
January 23, 2014, 06:59:34 AM


No, under 40 here.

I'm a bit surprised - you don't believe in the manipulation being stopped soon, Comex empty, etc? Just curious - why not?

You did not ask me, but I want to answer. I would assume you are 25ish and very new to investing in Gold. Saw some gold bug forums and some youtube videos.

Gold has been like this for a long time. Gold in its history has almost always been heavily manipulated and sometimes even banned. This manipulation could go on for another 100 years but with almost no effort 5 to 10 years.

One has to admit that the gold-bug propaganda ("the west is running out of physical, when that happens, the game is over and gold multiplies in value") is getting more convincing as of late, though. I considered it a general confirmation of that theory
when germany was basically told to fuck off when they asked for some of their gold back. If that doesn't prove the lack of gold in the US, what does? Add to that the recent leaving of the London gold fix by Deutsche Bank and the affirmation by Bafin (german banking/finance oversight authority) that gold price manipulation is a reality and is "worse than the libor manipulation". The exposing of the gold manipulation also seems to go more mainstream these days.

I think it's indeed possible the "jig is up" soon and I wouldn't be surprised.

On the other hand I agree with Goat: gold-bugs have been saying that this system will fail "very soon" for quite a long time now and it's certainly conceivable "the operators" might drag this thing down the road for quite a bit longer. These dudes are smart and have means at their disposal.

I agree ignoring crypto is likely very stupid. It's still probably a one in a lifetime chance for most people.


Ok, now does sounds a lot better. We are on the same page.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
January 23, 2014, 06:56:59 AM

thing is, people can "naked short" the PM market

this means they have no gold to sell, they don't barrow gold to sell, they use Dollars to short the market.

gold bugs hate this, and say that the reason gold is going down is because the FED and banks are naked shorting the PM market to oblivion in order to keep the appearance that the market isn't going totally crazy because everyone sees the end of the dollar in sight.

which is believable, if gold was allowed to run up to 15,000$ an ounce, poeple might start to talk about it, and then they would be exposed to the whole USD is worthless fiat thing. and they would lose confidence in USD  and run to gold, then the USD would be toast....


chriswilmer, this is basically the answer to your question.
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 500
📱 CARTESI 📱 INFRASTRUCTURE FOR SCA
January 23, 2014, 05:09:51 AM
Some info about Gold levels here:

http://harveyorgan.blogspot.no


22. of January
Quote
In Summary:
i) the total dealer inventory of gold settles tonight  at  a very dangerously low  level of only 11.512 tonnes. Dealer gold has never ever been to this level!!

i)  a) JPMorgan's customer inventory rests tonight at  1,371,956.437 (42.673) tonnes)

ii  b)  JPMorgan's dealer account rests tonight at  87,071.35 oz (2.708 tonnes)


iii) the 3 major bullion banks have collectively only 8.881 tonnes of gold left in their dealer account.(JPMorgan, HSBC,Scotia)

Quote
Since JPMorgan has stopped 97% of all issuance, if you remove them from the big three, then we have HSBC and Scotia having an inventory of only 6.173 tonnes of gold which must settle upon 3.880 tonnes of gold still outstanding.

The fun will begin in February especially if we have a large amount of physical gold standing!!
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
January 23, 2014, 04:36:19 AM
Yer dreaming. I watch these shows on cable TV of these schmucks working their asses off mining gold in AK, the Yukon and even offshore to mine gold at $1200/oz.  if the price doubles, every swinging dick with a shovel and a gleam in his eye will be out there with them. Gold WAS money. real money. free market money. It's easily recognizable, fungible, divisible portable and scarce. Bitcoin is MORE fungible, recognizable, divisible, portable and scarce. There's enough gold on the planet to cover the surface eight feet thick. You wanna dig it out of one hole, put it in another and pay someone to guard it. Good luck with that. It was awesome 18th century technology, but this is the 21st century.

We are never going back to a gold standard. I hate to agree with the asshole Kenesians, but they're right on this. You might use it like Goat does to trade in some mountain village in Burma, but in the real world you live in, it's good for speaker plugs and trinkets. Five thousand years was a good run. It's over. over. We used horses for five thousand years too.  


Yep. Took me a long time to see that too. The reason why gold cannot be a principal currency in daily use ever again is because it is so unwieldy for face-to-face transactions and can't be used for remote transactions, which are most, by value in a modern economy. A gold-backed debit card is very nice, but who can trust someone else with their gold? Even the German government can't get its gold back.

So fiat is needed, was needed until recently when crypto was invented.

All in then? Wink
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
January 23, 2014, 03:57:58 AM
Yer dreaming. I watch these shows on cable TV of these schmucks working their asses off mining gold in AK, the Yukon and even offshore to mine gold at $1200/oz.  if the price doubles, every swinging dick with a shovel and a gleam in his eye will be out there with them. Gold WAS money. real money. free market money. It's easily recognizable, fungible, divisible portable and scarce. Bitcoin is MORE fungible, recognizable, divisible, portable and scarce. There's enough gold on the planet to cover the surface eight feet thick. You wanna dig it out of one hole, put it in another and pay someone to guard it. Good luck with that. It was awesome 18th century technology, but this is the 21st century.

We are never going back to a gold standard. I hate to agree with the asshole Kenesians, but they're right on this. You might use it like Goat does to trade in some mountain village in Burma, but in the real world you live in, it's good for speaker plugs and trinkets. Five thousand years was a good run. It's over. over. We used horses for five thousand years too.  


Yep. Took me a long time to see that too. The reason why gold cannot be a principal currency in daily use ever again is because it is so unwieldy for face-to-face transactions and can't be used for remote transactions, which are most, by value in a modern economy. A gold-backed debit card is very nice, but who can trust someone else with their gold? Even the German government can't get its gold back.

So fiat is needed, was needed until recently when crypto was invented.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
January 23, 2014, 02:44:56 AM
Yer dreaming. I watch these shows on cable TV of these schmucks working their asses off mining gold in AK, the Yukon and even offshore to mine gold at $1200/oz.  if the price doubles, every swinging dick with a shovel and a gleam in his eye will be out there with them. Gold WAS money. real money. free market money. It's easily recognizable, fungible, divisible portable and scarce. Bitcoin is MORE fungible, recognizable, divisible, portable and scarce. There's enough gold on the planet to cover the surface eight feet thick. You wanna dig it out of one hole, put it in another and pay someone to guard it. Good luck with that. It was awesome 18th century technology, but this is the 21st century.

We are never going back to a gold standard. I hate to agree with the asshole Kenesians, but they're right on this. You might use it like Goat does to trade in some mountain village in Burma, but in the real world you live in, it's good for speaker plugs and trinkets. Five thousand years was a good run. It's over. over. We used horses for five thousand years too. 

donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
January 23, 2014, 02:11:44 AM
So, what's the consensus in this thread on diversification?

I think almost everyone here would agree that diversification is good. Noone says crypto is risk-free.

What people disagree on is the ratios.

I've always subscribed to the idea that diversification is for people who don't know what they are doing (to put it politely). I've got myself so deep in BTC that I'm not even paying attention to the rest of the world, because I can't even imagine anything else with as much promise.

Much promise? Yes, certainly. Much security? Doubtful.

Thinking one knows the future seems arrogant.

If you're young and don't have much wealth and nothing to lose, it can make sense to go 100% bitcoin, but for everyone else it's probably too risky still.

Maybe I'm doing it right (seems to be working pretty fucking awesome so far), but would like to at least look at some other things...

Yes, maybe you're doing it right. People that have a lot of wealth have an easy time suggesting diversification. In my mind, if you are low on wealth, having the balls to hold on to the crypto you have for as long as it takes for it to appreciate enough to make diversification reasonable is the way to go. Certainly would've worked for me and I regret (well, not really, it was the correct decision at the time) putting much more into gold/silver than into crypto back in '11.

But in the end: who knows how things will develop... we'll have to suffer the consequences of our actions, that much is certain.
legendary
Activity: 1133
Merit: 1163
Imposition of ORder = Escalation of Chaos
January 23, 2014, 02:02:23 AM
I really don't have the feeling that without effort this could go on for another five years: Look at Comex inventories, German gold repatriation, Chinese imports, etc, etc... It's very hard for me to figure how the manipulation could even continue beyond 2014 - but who knows which last minute tricks they will get out of their bags...

Don't underestimate the power of bullshit, my friend!

Or as Doug Casey puts it: just because something is inevitable, doesn't mean it is imminent.

Your sentiment reminds me of my own in 2007/2008 - I guess I was in a similar frame of mind; I spent countless hours educating myself on the economic situation, gold, the manipulation, the fiat-system etc. and once the markets started crashing I was utterly convinced that this was it and things were going to move quickly, with hyperinflation setting in and the dollar collapsing withing a year or two. Turns out I underestimated the power of bullshit and the ability of the guardians of the current system to patch it up with loose money & propaganda and kick the can down the road for many years to come. According to my timetable for financial collapse from back then we should long have been well into the hyperinflation stage with all the trouble that brings...alas here we are with the gold price (probably) suppressed down and mainstream media happily chirping about "recovery" and business as usual. This could go on for years, but not forever.

TL;DR: I agree with Goat. There seems to be overwhelming evidence of gold price manipulation since a loooong time. This doesn't mean that the scheme will collapse within a year or two (it might, though), but one day it will. It will be a lot of fun!
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
January 23, 2014, 02:01:40 AM
Give it a little while, if you're lax in your "rebalencing", you too many end up with 85% cryptos!  Smiley

Haha, this made my day. Probably true, too.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
January 23, 2014, 01:49:25 AM


No, under 40 here.

I'm a bit surprised - you don't believe in the manipulation being stopped soon, Comex empty, etc? Just curious - why not?

You did not ask me, but I want to answer. I would assume you are 25ish and very new to investing in Gold. Saw some gold bug forums and some youtube videos.

Gold has been like this for a long time. Gold in its history has almost always been heavily manipulated and sometimes even banned. This manipulation could go on for another 100 years but with almost no effort 5 to 10 years.

One has to admit that the gold-bug propaganda ("the west is running out of physical, when that happens, the game is over and gold multiplies in value") is getting more convincing as of late, though. I considered it a general confirmation of that theory
when germany was basically told to fuck off when they asked for some of their gold back. If that doesn't prove the lack of gold in the US, what does? Add to that the recent leaving of the London gold fix by Deutsche Bank and the affirmation by Bafin (german banking/finance oversight authority) that gold price manipulation is a reality and is "worse than the libor manipulation". The exposing of the gold manipulation also seems to go more mainstream these days.

I think it's indeed possible the "jig is up" soon and I wouldn't be surprised.

On the other hand I agree with Goat: gold-bugs have been saying that this system will fail "very soon" for quite a long time now and it's certainly conceivable "the operators" might drag this thing down the road for quite a bit longer. These dudes are smart and have means at their disposal.

I agree ignoring crypto is likely very stupid. It's still probably a one in a lifetime chance for most people.
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