Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 505. (Read 2032286 times)

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
February 06, 2015, 04:25:07 PM
Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

The past hundred years (but greatly accelerated over the past 30) has seen massive artificial wealth creation on a global scale. But it is artificial and based on false valuation of CB money. Most of this wealth is going to simply disappear when the CB system breaks. You can't short because it is impossible to know the timing.

I think the best way to get a sense for what survives and what does not when money dies is to read about both the great depression (when the FED defaulted and their first bubble blew) and Germany (when they defaulted through printing).

Accounts in both generally read similar, people said that one day they and their neighbors had work and money to pay for things, and then overnight it all seemed to just vanish and the next day jobs were gone and no one had any money to pay for things. That is how fast CB money can lose value when their liabilities are suddenly revalued to their true value.

The US and Germany took different paths but ended up in slightly similar places. The US allowed a debt implosion and defaulted resulting in a depression, here prices fell but people had no money to pay for things. Germany took the printing press path, here everyone had money but prices rose so fast that the money people had was not enough to pay for things. Same thing, different path.

What survived though from an investor perspective was different. In Germany people with hard assets (gold, land) did fine because these held value, but people who saw what was happening and used debt to purchase hard assets did great (kept the assets, debt disappeared). In the US, gold was confiscated and devalued and land dropped in price (but taxes remained). Here people with hard assets did not do great, and people who used debt to buy hard assets got crushed. (My great grand-father apparently lost all of his land in this time, not because he had debt but because the taxes were more than anyone could afford).

So the dilemma is you have to guess which way the Central Banks will go, honest default or money printing. And that we don't know.

If you look at what the CB's have done so far it points to monetary inflationary outcome. This time one tempered with extreme market interventions in the bond, stock and metals 'markets'.


To both previous posters: I shamelessly point out the main point of my post/article, which is that the long term capital investments in the history, for producing current goods now, have been overweight. And that the consumers are exhausted by consumption of savings. So I would look for those things to crash (or continue crashing): Oil, iron ore, aluminium, platforms, bulldozers and other machinery, ships, then the companies that work in the early phases of investment of those things: Mineral surveillance, Seismic Surveillance, shipbuilding.

legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
February 06, 2015, 04:25:02 PM
If you look at what the CB's have done so far it points to monetary inflationary outcome. This time one tempered with extreme market interventions in the bond, stock and metals 'markets'.

I would tend to agree this will be the final action, but I think in order to cover their actions they will initially take the austerity/default path and wait till the market begs for printing, this is what happened in 2007/08.

So we might first see another crash and only then see the monetary inflationary outcome.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
February 06, 2015, 04:14:15 PM


This means that the gold bugs are so full of themselves that they have not discovered that we may already have started the deflation downturn.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1000
February 06, 2015, 01:14:37 PM
Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

The past hundred years (but greatly accelerated over the past 30) has seen massive artificial wealth creation on a global scale. But it is artificial and based on false valuation of CB money. Most of this wealth is going to simply disappear when the CB system breaks. You can't short because it is impossible to know the timing.

I think the best way to get a sense for what survives and what does not when money dies is to read about both the great depression (when the FED defaulted and their first bubble blew) and Germany (when they defaulted through printing).

Accounts in both generally read similar, people said that one day they and their neighbors had work and money to pay for things, and then overnight it all seemed to just vanish and the next day jobs were gone and no one had any money to pay for things. That is how fast CB money can lose value when their liabilities are suddenly revalued to their true value.

The US and Germany took different paths but ended up in slightly similar places. The US allowed a debt implosion and defaulted resulting in a depression, here prices fell but people had no money to pay for things. Germany took the printing press path, here everyone had money but prices rose so fast that the money people had was not enough to pay for things. Same thing, different path.

What survived though from an investor perspective was different. In Germany people with hard assets (gold, land) did fine because these held value, but people who saw what was happening and used debt to purchase hard assets did great (kept the assets, debt disappeared). In the US, gold was confiscated and devalued and land dropped in price (but taxes remained). Here people with hard assets did not do great, and people who used debt to buy hard assets got crushed. (My great grand-father apparently lost all of his land in this time, not because he had debt but because the taxes were more than anyone could afford).

So the dilemma is you have to guess which way the Central Banks will go, honest default or money printing. And that we don't know.

If you look at what the CB's have done so far it points to monetary inflationary outcome. This time one tempered with extreme market interventions in the bond, stock and metals 'markets'.

legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
February 06, 2015, 01:05:57 PM
Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

The past hundred years (but greatly accelerated over the past 30) has seen massive artificial wealth creation on a global scale. But it is artificial and based on false valuation of CB money. Most of this wealth is going to simply disappear when the CB system breaks. You can't short because it is impossible to know the timing.

I think the best way to get a sense for what survives and what does not when money dies is to read about both the great depression (when the FED defaulted and their first bubble blew) and Germany (when they defaulted through printing).

Accounts in both generally read similar, people said that one day they and their neighbors had work and money to pay for things, and then overnight it all seemed to just vanish and the next day jobs were gone and no one had any money to pay for things. That is how fast CB money can lose value when their liabilities are suddenly revalued to their true value.

The US and Germany took different paths but ended up in slightly similar places. The US allowed a debt implosion and defaulted resulting in a depression, here prices fell but people had no money to pay for things. Germany took the printing press path, here everyone had money but prices rose so fast that the money people had was not enough to pay for things. Same thing, different path.

What survived though from an investor perspective was different. In Germany people with hard assets (gold, land) did fine because these held value, but people who saw what was happening and used debt to purchase hard assets did great (kept the assets, debt disappeared). In the US, gold was confiscated and devalued and land dropped in price (but taxes remained). Here people with hard assets did not do great, and people who used debt to buy hard assets got crushed. (My great grand-father apparently lost all of his land in this time, not because he had debt but because the taxes were more than anyone could afford).

So the dilemma is you have to guess which way the Central Banks will go, honest default or money printing. And that we don't know.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
February 06, 2015, 12:14:29 PM
nice, new, intermediate term, sell signal:

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
February 06, 2015, 12:11:59 PM
1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false
How so?

What mechanism would SC use to secure there chain?

Would transaction fees not be an option?

It isn't "absolutely" false, (nor is it universally true) it would depend on the SC.  The SC can do pretty much anything.

We are talking about 2wp SC 1:1 (no new bitcoins can be mined on SC)

To my point you are correct. But that's not the issue.
legendary
Activity: 961
Merit: 1000
February 06, 2015, 12:04:27 PM
And we're off...-0.5%

zerohedge ‏@zerohedge  5h5 hours ago
FIH Erhvervsbank in Denmark will start charging some deposit accounts amid negative rates: BBG
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
February 06, 2015, 11:51:44 AM
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
February 06, 2015, 11:32:46 AM
...[Central banksters] instead take it from the money system, fucking it up. The most important asset, part of every trade, money, just fucking it up.

Haha!  And you can't stop us, pathetic Earthling!  You're weak!



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords

1/10

Right, but traders decide what is money, and....you know the rest.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
February 06, 2015, 11:31:30 AM
^Your butthurt makes you tastier, Human.



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords

legendary
Activity: 961
Merit: 1000
February 06, 2015, 11:24:51 AM
...[Central banksters] instead take it from the money system, fucking it up. The most important asset, part of every trade, money, just fucking it up.

Haha!  And you can't stop us, pathetic Earthling!  You're weak!



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords

1/10
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
February 06, 2015, 11:20:58 AM
...[Central banksters] instead take it from the money system, fucking it up. The most important asset, part of every trade, money, just fucking it up.

Haha!  And you can't stop us, pathetic Earthling!  You're weak!



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
February 06, 2015, 10:15:45 AM
Gold collapsing.  Bitcoin bottoming.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
February 06, 2015, 09:50:17 AM
Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

But, aren't those central bankers the smartest people in the world, who have only the general health and happiness of the global population at heart?

Or...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NlXbeB9mNg

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2014/12/19/its-official-elvira-nabiullina-wins-the-tall-pointy-hat-award-for-mismanagement-of-the-ruble/
(When I read articles about gold, I also mentally substitute in Bitcoin.  The larger population will get there eventually.)
Nathan Lewis is Steve Forbes gold guy.  Most Forbes articles on gold come from his pen.  I shared a private dinner with him and Bernard von NotHaus at a Malibu Beach restaurant a couple years back.  We had some lively discussions.

If they did what they say they do, they could regulate the market, just like any daytrader. The only difference. A daytrader who consistently loses, will go out of business, but a central bank that consistently loses, just takes a cut from everybody else and continues the loss. That is if they just regulate, which they don't.

They don't take it from the taxes, someone could notice. They instead take it from the money system, fucking it up. The most important asset, part of every trade, money, just fucking it up.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
February 06, 2015, 09:24:45 AM
Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

But, aren't those central bankers the smartest people in the world, who have only the general health and happiness of the global population at heart?

Or...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NlXbeB9mNg

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2014/12/19/its-official-elvira-nabiullina-wins-the-tall-pointy-hat-award-for-mismanagement-of-the-ruble/
(When I read articles about gold, I also mentally substitute in Bitcoin.  The larger population will get there eventually.)
Nathan Lewis is Steve Forbes gold guy.  Most Forbes articles on gold come from his pen.  I shared a private dinner with him and Bernard von NotHaus at a Malibu Beach restaurant a couple years back.  We had some lively discussions.
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1040
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
February 06, 2015, 09:14:12 AM
Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

Adding that the interest rate in the bond market is not a good indicator, that only shows what the politicians, including the bankers, do. The interesting indicators are the price of long term commodities (oil, iron ore) and the price of and demand for capital assets that are invested (caterpillar tons of machinery (not profit)), surveying businesses in oil and mining, oil rigs and oil rig builders, oil pipes, conveyor belts, that kind of things.

I am afraid that a hard reset is the only way to rebalance at this point.

We don't need to suffer, we have bitcoins.


legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
February 06, 2015, 08:56:59 AM
1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false
How so?

What mechanism would SC use to secure there chain?

Would transaction fees not be an option?

It isn't "absolutely" false, (nor is it universally true) it would depend on the SC.  The SC can do pretty much anything.

We are talking about 2wp SC 1:1 (no new bitcoins can be mined on SC)
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
February 06, 2015, 08:52:52 AM
1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false
How so?

What mechanism would SC use to secure there chain?

Would transaction fees not be an option?

It isn't "absolutely" false, (nor is it universally true) it would depend on the SC.  The SC can do pretty much anything.
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