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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 580. (Read 2032291 times)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 04, 2015, 12:57:39 PM

shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.



so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.

I clarified a bit as an edit.

I've always been more inclined to favor more of a token system for 'exchange currency' duty.  Under such a 'token flavored sidechain' I would only wish to be able to verify that I am in sole control of my tokens and could induce a particular native Bitcoin retrieval on demand.  For such a system I would accept a certain amount of slop since this would go a long way toward implementation efficiency, and I won't die if I lose (or gain) a few nickles in some sort of a SC failure.



none of what you're saying then makes sense compared to what Adam has been saying.

SC's are blockchains except in the case of federated server SC's (but even that definition is being fuzzed over by the SC ppl calling an internal ledger a SC  Huh)
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
January 04, 2015, 12:52:14 PM
I'm new to this thread.  Without reading all 989 pages of posts, can somebody summarize the prevailing Zeitgeist of this thread?

Shouldn't it read, "Bitcoin collapsing, Gold is steady"?

It reminds me, as a gold bug, of the 'collapse' in gold the last few years.  Since my average price is well below $1000 an ounce, I don't really care if it falls from its all time high, as I'm still above water.

Is it the same with most of you BTC holders?  Or did you buy at the peak?

TonyT

There are no precise statistics about the number of people that bought higher than the current market price but you can assume it's now more than 50%.

picolo, TonyT, there are VERY precise statistics of exactly this (just not by "person", only by "bitcoin").  All of the data is in the block chain.  Anyone can see precisely when every bitcoin was last transferred.  There are also pretty good data on exchange rates to whatever your favorite currency is (if not bitcoin).  Every UTXO exists in a timestamped block.

Ratcliff has put together some nice area charts showing the age.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2n205b/an_area_chart_showing_the_distribution_of/

So to answer your question, most bitcoin were last transferred at well under the current price.
(And this chart below only includes the last 4 years of transfers, older bitcoin are not included)
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 362
in bitcoin we trust
January 04, 2015, 12:49:28 PM
I've always been more inclined to favor more of a token system for 'exchange currency' duty.  Under such a 'token flavored sidechain' I would only wish to be able to verify that I am in sole control of my tokens and could induce a particular native Bitcoin retrieval on demand.  For such a system I would accept a certain amount of slop since this would go a long way toward implementation efficiency, and I won't die if I lose (or gain) a few nickles in some sort of a SC failure.

I guess I didnt understand what you meant then (I was thinking privacy).  Still not getting it.

Adam
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
January 04, 2015, 12:45:37 PM

shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.



so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.

I clarified a bit as an edit.

I've always been more inclined to favor more of a token system for 'exchange currency' duty.  Under such a 'token flavored sidechain' I would only wish to be able to verify that I am in sole control of my tokens and could induce a particular native Bitcoin retrieval on demand.  For such a system I would accept a certain amount of slop since this would go a long way toward implementation efficiency, and I won't die if I lose (or gain) a few nickles in some sort of a SC failure.

sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 362
in bitcoin we trust
January 04, 2015, 12:45:29 PM

shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.

so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.

I think tvbcof is talking about privacy so eg if the sidechain is an implementation of zerocash its an opaque blob and all you know is the total balance and the number of tx/day.

You can hide locks on bitcoin with a simple change (thats what committed-tx does) so you dont know which bitcoin addresses are locked vs just idle.  

I think what tvbcof is saying as a requirement is it'd be nice if you didnt know how much was in the sidechain (cant distinguish locked from parked on mainchain).

But for the sidechain to accept that it has to know how much and have it proven.  That implies a pretty large snark proof of bitcoin blockchain.

Adam
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 04, 2015, 12:36:29 PM

shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.



so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
January 04, 2015, 12:32:32 PM

shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.

 edit - oops.  Missread 'its' blockchain.  I personally don't assume that all (or maybe even most) sidechains would have a blockchain and if these classes of sidechains do it would be an artificial thing needed to help integrate with and support the Bitcoin blockchain.

hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 500
January 04, 2015, 12:30:41 PM
I'm new to this thread.  Without reading all 989 pages of posts, can somebody summarize the prevailing Zeitgeist of this thread?

Shouldn't it read, "Bitcoin collapsing, Gold is steady"?

It reminds me, as a gold bug, of the 'collapse' in gold the last few years.  Since my average price is well below $1000 an ounce, I don't really care if it falls from its all time high, as I'm still above water.

Is it the same with most of you BTC holders?  Or did you buy at the peak?

TonyT

There are no precise statistics about the number of people that bought higher than the current market price but you can assume it's now more than 50%.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 04, 2015, 12:11:41 PM
The point of moving transactions on-chain is that the user can then own their own coins, rather than delegating ownership to a third party like mtgox.

But each SC has its own spvp (single address)  that everyone has to move through to the SC? In other words,  everyone has to send their BTC to that address and then are somehow going to receive individually assigned scBTC on the other side?  

So the spv peg transactions (which anyone can create at any time) includes a list of addresses and amounts to emerge on the sidechain, so that could be one user, or a group of users each contributing inputs a bit like CoinJoin.  However its going to be more efficient to use an arbitrageur or cross-chain atomic swap for all but large liquidity calls if the trade gets imbalanced.

Adam


shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 04, 2015, 12:09:59 PM
what is this bizarro world where any ledger of ownership qualifies as a blockchain  Huh
*ahem*


if he's confused, we're all in trouble.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
January 04, 2015, 12:03:28 PM
what is this bizarro world where any ledger of ownership qualifies as a blockchain  Huh
*ahem*
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
January 04, 2015, 11:49:29 AM
what is this bizarro world where any ledger of ownership qualifies as a blockchain  Huh
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 362
in bitcoin we trust
January 04, 2015, 11:31:34 AM
The point of moving transactions on-chain is that the user can then own their own coins, rather than delegating ownership to a third party like mtgox.

But each SC has its own spvp (single address)  that everyone has to move through to the SC? In other words,  everyone has to send their BTC to that address and then are somehow going to receive individually assigned scBTC on the other side?  

So the spv peg transactions (which anyone can create at any time) includes a list of addresses and amounts to emerge on the sidechain, so that could be one user, or a group of users each contributing inputs a bit like CoinJoin.  However its going to be more efficient to use an arbitrageur or cross-chain atomic swap for all but large liquidity calls if the trade gets imbalanced.

Adam
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 362
in bitcoin we trust
January 04, 2015, 11:28:19 AM
cypherdoc: it seems you are against side-chains on an economic principle rather than a specific technical implementation

Does this principle then extend to all other provably-backed (cryptographically-linked) bitcoin substitute tokens? And would you like to specify/define exactly what that principle is so that future technical improvements can be evaluated equally?

There are many new innovations to come that will achieve the same or similar results in principle to the side-chain conversion SPV 2wp, using multi-sig and time-locks, ZKP, etc ... are you going to be opposed to all these innovations also? (Hint: they will allow fast, off-chain, private settlement, or ttx bundling, with near zero-trust, i.e. blockchain level security and low costs).

I think that the economic principle of operation you seem to be vehemently opposed to is inevitable in some form or another. There will be token money substitutes that really will be cryptographically "as good as bitcoin", in a way that paper money substitutes were never "as good as gold".

Seems to me you got the last word in there Smiley  Nicely put.

The time-locks is a great example because that actually exists already: micropayment channels, which provide micropayments with normal security, but the incremental payments are offchain.  There is another concept called a micropayment channel hub, which extends that idea.  Its also very simple Peter Todd explains it here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg06576.html

one reason I think its an interesting example is it also has a time-preference in normal operation (though in that case any party can cash-in the balance at any time on the chain, though they have to start again for future tx, and setup a new time-lock).

Adam
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 04, 2015, 11:24:31 AM
If mtgox had had you design a SC for them, would you have structured a single specific SPVmtgox SC to which everyone would have sent their BTC (one address), then waited 2d for confirmation, before allowing those individuals to be assigned their own specific  scBTC to be traded p2p , all the while securing this SC with 100% MM?

The point of moving transactions on-chain is that the user can then own their own coins, rather than delegating ownership to a third party like mtgox.

Adam


But each SC has its own spvp (single address)  that everyone has to move through to the SC? In other words,  everyone has to send their BTC to that address and then are somehow going to receive individually assigned scBTC on the other side? 
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 362
in bitcoin we trust
January 04, 2015, 11:07:55 AM
If mtgox had had you design a SC for them, would you have structured a single specific SPVmtgox SC to which everyone would have sent their BTC (one address), then waited 2d for confirmation, before allowing those individuals to be assigned their own specific  scBTC to be traded p2p , all the while securing this SC with 100% MM?

The point of moving transactions on-chain is that the user can then own their own coins, rather than delegating ownership to a third party like mtgox.

Adam
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 04, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Adam,

If mtgox had had you design a SC for them, would you have structured a single specific SPVmtgox SC to which everyone would have sent their BTC (one address), then waited 2d for confirmation, before allowing those individuals to be assigned their own specific  scBTC to be traded p2p , all the while securing this SC with 100% MM?
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 362
in bitcoin we trust
January 04, 2015, 10:38:15 AM
You could probably afford to lose the price of a cup of coffee.
Bitcoin can not afford to have a billion people using a different currency/money substitutes to pay for their coffee.

No but it could afford to have one or two eg pettycoin connected over a 2wp, freeing up bitcoin main from sub $10 transactions.

It has sharded validation, its not an alt its a micropayment network bitcoin auxiliary chain.  He thinks he can get to 100k TPS.  I really dont think you want that on the main chain because its weaker, and he cut down a lot of bitcoin features to get it.  But its useful.

He has a video up about pettycoin chain sharding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzst_gChOr8.

Adam
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
January 04, 2015, 10:33:37 AM

Justusranvier says that it is 'econ 101' that mining reward will fall to zero (and I say it's likely to dip below semi-regularly.)

I can't stop you from spreading misinformation, but I can point out when you're misquoting me.

I said the profitability of mining will approach zero over time, just like the profitability of every productive enterprise in a free market approaches zero over time.

All I'm asking for is for you to bless us with a dab of your immense wisdom and expend a sentence of two explaining what provides support to Bitcoin when the profitability of mining falls to near zero.  Good will?  Hopium?  Magical crypto-flakes?

It's surprising to see an such an economic guru as yourself struggle so much here.  Or perhaps 'free markets' are overrated and not applicable as a support foundation for Bitcoin.  Certainly I could understand you preferring to remain mute about it if that's your thinking.

legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
Enabling the maximal migration
January 04, 2015, 10:03:12 AM
I'm new to this thread.  Without reading all 989 pages of posts, can somebody summarize the prevailing Zeitgeist of this thread?

Shouldn't it read, "Bitcoin collapsing, Gold is steady"?

It reminds me, as a gold bug, of the 'collapse' in gold the last few years.  Since my average price is well below $1000 an ounce, I don't really care if it falls from its all time high, as I'm still above water.

Is it the same with most of you BTC holders?  Or did you buy at the peak?

TonyT

Check the original post date for context.
My average cost per bitcoin is about 7 dollars and cypher's is probably even lower, so no many of us here are comfortably in the black.
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