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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 812. (Read 2032266 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 30, 2014, 12:04:35 AM
well then, here's a thought argument. 

let's say those 2 factors balance each other out exactly, ie, half of BTC holders convert BTC to scBTC while the other half stay put and half the miners currently mining BTC switch to primarily mining scBTC.  in that case, then i say the Bitcoin MC still loses.  which is really the risk i'm trying to identify, that being any damage a SC might inflict on Bitcoin MC.  it loses b/c the SC has succeeded in weakening Bitcoin's security by 50% subjecting it to possible 51% attacks and volatility (which will happen if any weakness in Bitcoin itself is detected by the market).  as volatility picks up, the price will drop.

not true.

using your base case. you have now essentially created two liquidity market. a transparent ann a private one. these are the only two markets that can work in synergy. both could thrive without effectively damaging the other. as long as people find value in transparence and in privacy and there will be a market for both such market.

I actually believe this is something that could very plausibly happen.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 30, 2014, 12:00:32 AM
(with sufficient confidence to justify the inconvenience you describe)

this is what it comes down to if you ask me.

if the innovation and the backing of this new sidecoin is so important the value proposition outweight ALL of the risks involved with such a migration than what the hell let's do it. but remember cypherdoc, you have said it yourself, there are numerous and considerable risks and friction in such a movement

well then, here's a thought argument. 

let's say those 2 factors balance each other out exactly, ie, half of BTC holders convert BTC to scBTC while the other half stay put and half the miners currently mining BTC switch to primarily mining scBTC.  in that case, then i say the Bitcoin MC still loses.  which is really the risk i'm trying to identify, that being any damage a SC might inflict on Bitcoin MC.  it loses b/c the SC has succeeded in weakening Bitcoin's security by 50% subjecting it to possible 51% attacks and volatility (which will happen if any weakness in Bitcoin itself is detected by the market).  as volatility picks up, the price will drop.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 11:53:53 PM
They will not unless they have an incentive to do so.

you're failing to read my posts.

small miners struggling to mine BTC right now mainly at a loss would gladly switch to a SC that is producing cheap sidecoins in the hope of scooping up large #'s of sidecoin w/o competition while hoping for price appreciation if they see the same things you said would result in a price rise of scBTC, that being an increasing #scBTC's appearing on the SC (from the whale pump) along with a rise in the price of those same scBTC from speculative buying on an exchange AND an innovation.

remember, the SC is designed to be superior.

I consider another flaw in your argument to be your casual dismissal of the force of arbitrage.

You are basically suggesting the network effect of the sidechain would grow faster than arbitrage could keep up with.

Considering the ever-present risks of locking your BTC on a sidechain until the majority of the infrastructure jumps boat, I consider this highly improbable
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 11:50:40 PM
(with sufficient confidence to justify the inconvenience you describe)

this is what it comes down to if you ask me.

if the innovation and the backing of this new sidecoin is so important the value proposition outweight ALL of the risks involved with such a migration than what the hell let's do it. but remember cypherdoc, you have said it yourself, there are numerous and considerable risks and friction in such a movement
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:48:14 PM
They will not unless they have an incentive to do so.

you're failing to read my posts.

small miners struggling to mine BTC right now mainly at a loss would gladly switch to a SC that is producing cheap sidecoins in the hope of scooping up large #'s of sidecoin w/o competition while hoping for price appreciation if they see the same things you said would result in a price rise of scBTC, that being an increasing #scBTC's appearing on the SC (from the whale pump) along with a rise in the price of those same scBTC from speculative buying on an exchange AND an innovation.

remember, the SC is designed to be superior.  all i'm talking about is a natural fulfillment of that superiority.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:44:22 PM
Or maybe not. I've recently seen the claim that risks introduced by the apparent progress toward side chains actually being implemented are behind the BTC price weakness. I don't buy it, but interesting theory.

well, i said that the day the paper came out and the price tanked.  i believe it IS related as SC's introduce considerable uncertainty into Bitcoin as in allowing a for profit company composed of several of its core devs make a change in what was supposed to be an open source consensus based source code that shouldn't favor any specific interested group, major contributors or not.

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how does any blockchain do this?

You can certainly have two or more different types of coins on one chain, side chain or otherwise.

well there you go.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 11:44:04 PM
if Blockstream is successful at convincing mining pools to freely merge mining from the beginning, the SC can function securely while cultivating the innovation.  once proven stable, if i were a whale, i'd go for the pump knowing i have a risk free put.

Are you confused  Huh

I'm tired of going in circles with you  Undecided

Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining.

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"


i see what you're saying now.  the SC has to mine the sidecoin or the scBTC, not both at the same time?

good point.  but didn't the paper say that multiple assets could be secured on the same SC at the same time?  wtf?

from the paper
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Of course, sidechains are able to support their own assets, which they would be responsible for maintaining the scarcity of

I think you are right that merge-mining solves this in a way BUT only if the majority of miners decide to mine the coin.

They will not unless they have an incentive to do so.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 29, 2014, 11:38:06 PM
now, i for one, think that will be quite disruptive if we have to break out our cold storage wallet everytime a new innovation comes along forcing us to move to a new SC.  that will introduce all sorts of security and identity risks, not to mention volatility.

This would only be the case if the old chain utterly fails or such failure is expected (with sufficient confidence to justify the inconvenience you describe), otherwise you have no real incentive to move, since out retain the option to exchange at your convenience.

In any case, I'm a little confused by all these scenarios. It seems maybe we should talk about something other than sidechains on this thread? It's getting a bit old.

Or maybe not. I've recently seen the claim that risks introduced by the apparent progress toward side chains actually being implemented are behind the BTC price weakness. I don't buy it, but interesting theory.

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how does any blockchain do this?

You can certainly have two or more different types of coins on one chain, side chain or otherwise.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:37:52 PM
This thread is awesome now.... I love FUD based in misunderstandings.  It is way cooler than global economics and the interplay between gold and bitcoin.  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:36:00 PM
Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining. 

Yes they are.  These secondary tokens will be an additional reward when SC blocks are mined.  These tokens will reside on the same chain as the pegged assets.

how does any blockchain do this?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
if Blockstream is successful at convincing mining pools to freely merge mining from the beginning, the SC can function securely while cultivating the innovation.  once proven stable, if i were a whale, i'd go for the pump knowing i have a risk free put.

Are you confused  Huh

I'm tired of going in circles with you  Undecided

Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining.

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"


i see what you're saying now.  the SC has to mine the sidecoin or the scBTC, not both at the same time?

good point.  but didn't the paper say that multiple assets could be secured on the same SC at the same time?  wtf?
hero member
Activity: 622
Merit: 500
October 29, 2014, 11:34:45 PM
Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining. 

Yes they are.  These secondary tokens will be an additional reward when SC blocks are mined.  These tokens will reside on the same chain as the pegged assets.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
October 29, 2014, 11:32:08 PM

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"

Logical, you trade risk for benefit.

but it's not even a risk once you've determined the SC is stable and not susceptible to a frank bug .  and that's b/c of the 2 way peg, ie, a risk free put ripe for exploitation.
1:1 can also include fees and penalties.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:27:46 PM

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"

Logical, you trade risk for benefit.

but it's not even a risk once you've determined the SC is stable and not susceptible to a frank bug .  and that's b/c of the 2 way peg, ie, a risk free put ripe for exploitation.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
October 29, 2014, 11:23:49 PM

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"

Logical, you trade risk for benefit.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 11:23:08 PM
and you didn't answer my question; are you associated with Blockstream in any way?

No, sir.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:21:44 PM
if Blockstream is successful at convincing mining pools to freely merge mining from the beginning, the SC can function securely while cultivating the innovation.  once proven stable, if i were a whale, i'd go for the pump knowing i have a risk free put.

Are you confused  Huh

I'm tired of going in circles with you  Undecided

Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining.


do you even understand merge mining?  it can be used to secure a chain with or w/o the creation of new sidecoins.  look at Namecoin generation: MM'd by Bitcoin miners.  look at Dogecoin generation:  MM'd by LTC miners.

Quote

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"


the risk free put is only for BTC converted to scBTC, which is precisely what the whale will be pumping thru the peg.  that's what matters.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 11:18:17 PM
if Blockstream is successful at convincing mining pools to freely merge mining from the beginning, the SC can function securely while cultivating the innovation.  once proven stable, if i were a whale, i'd go for the pump knowing i have a risk free put.

Are you confused  Huh

I'm tired of going in circles with you  Undecided

Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining.

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 29, 2014, 11:13:03 PM
not at all.  the real key is that a SC will be a nascent currency plus an innovation with plenty of potential.  a whale could easily jerk the price upwards and then get follow on from other whales or speculators willing to be the new early adopters of a "better" currency.

Why have they not done it with an alt-coin then  Huh

b/c they want free merge mining from Bitcoin miners to get started.

I don't think there is any predicament at all. If the side chain is objectively a better chain as determined by stakeholders, then it is simply time to move on. There is not necessarily any reason try to try to backport everything to the original chain. BTC will have fulfilled its useful purpose of giving birth to the improved scBTC/BTC2.

you know what, it turns out I agree with this 100% and this is another reality for which cypherdoc has no answer

lol.  what?  smooth just verified my point.  if a SC proves superior, everyone will indeed move over to it.  now, i for one, think that will be quite disruptive if we have to break out our cold storage wallet everytime a new innovation comes along forcing us to move to a new SC.  that will introduce all sorts of security and identity risks, not to mention volatility.

btw, you're the one who concluded that an appearance of scBTC on a SC would cause a price rise and be indicative of a successful innovation.

and you didn't answer my question; are you associated with Blockstream in any way?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 11:12:39 PM
I tried but I don't why "whale starts pumping" means in the context of sidechains. The peg is built-in. If a sidechain was pegged 1:1 how would a whale cause the sidechain to change in value and why would people pay a premium as apposed to locking BTC themselves to use the sidechain?

he's scared whales are gonna pump the better coin  Shocked
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