Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 814.

HeliKopterBen

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Quote from: smooth on October 29, 2014, 10:07:54 PM

Quote from: HeliKopterBen on October 29, 2014, 10:02:41 PM

Quote from: cbeast on October 29, 2014, 09:58:22 PM

A Side Chain must be 1:1 otherwise it's a merge mined (or not merge mined) altcoin.

From the whitepaper:

Quote

However, it is possible for sidechains to produce their own tokens, or issued
assets, which carry their own semantics.

As a Bitcoin holder I fail to see why I wouldn't prefer such a sidechain to one that is relying on transaction fees for mining, other than possibly ideological reasons, which I doubt will have much practical effect. Fees plus token should be more secure than fees alone, assuming any value for the token.

The additional token may divert mining resources away from MC, causing MC to be less secure. Of course the additional token could bring additional mining resources into the network.

smooth

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Quote from: HeliKopterBen on October 29, 2014, 10:02:41 PM

Quote from: cbeast on October 29, 2014, 09:58:22 PM

A Side Chain must be 1:1 otherwise it's a merge mined (or not merge mined) altcoin.

From the whitepaper:

Quote

However, it is possible for sidechains to produce their own tokens, or issued
assets, which carry their own semantics.

As a Bitcoin holder I fail to see why I wouldn't prefer such a sidechain to one that is relying on transaction fees for mining, other than possibly ideological reasons, which I doubt will have much practical effect. Fees plus token should be more secure than fees alone, assuming any value for the token.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: HeliKopterBen on October 29, 2014, 10:02:41 PM

Quote from: cbeast on October 29, 2014, 09:58:22 PM

A Side Chain must be 1:1 otherwise it's a merge mined (or not merge mined) altcoin.

From the whitepaper:

Quote

However, it is possible for sidechains to produce their own tokens, or issued
assets, which carry their own semantics.

It's A White Paper, not The White Paper. I don't agree with the notion of independently traded tokens. The idea of a SC is to decentralize mining (whatever that means) and allow it to scale using present technology.

HeliKopterBen

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Quote from: cbeast on October 29, 2014, 09:58:22 PM

A Side Chain must be 1:1 otherwise it's a merge mined (or not merge mined) altcoin.

From the whitepaper:

Quote

However, it is possible for sidechains to produce their own tokens, or issued
assets, which carry their own semantics.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: cbeast on October 29, 2014, 09:58:22 PM

A Side Chain must be 1:1 otherwise it's a merge mined (or not merge mined) altcoin.

that is the underlying assumption in my base case.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

A Side Chain must be 1:1 otherwise it's a merge mined (or not merge mined) altcoin.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: HeliKopterBen on October 29, 2014, 09:52:59 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 29, 2014, 09:24:50 PM

the whale could amplify the effect by buying scBTC

Then it wouldn't be a risk free put.

yep, but under the right conditions could be quite effective. like in a price ramp to offset the arb bots.

Quote

perhaps the SC could introduce a sidecoin block reward equivalent to Bitcoin at the height in the SC when it is introduced.

The SC reward wouldn't be fungible with bitcoin like the pegged coin. However, I could see the SC reward becoming a problem if the side chain became popular. It would provide further incentive for miners to mine the SC vs the MC.

no it wouldn't be fungible but would cause mining competition especially when the sidecoin is cheap along with the potential for significant price appreciation.

HeliKopterBen

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Quote from: cypherdoc on October 29, 2014, 09:24:50 PM

the whale could amplify the effect by buying scBTC

Then it wouldn't be a risk free put.

Quote

perhaps the SC could introduce a sidecoin block reward equivalent to Bitcoin at the height in the SC when it is introduced.

The SC reward wouldn't be fungible with bitcoin like the pegged coin. However, I could see the SC reward becoming a problem if the side chain became popular. It would provide further incentive for miners to mine the SC vs the MC.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: HeliKopterBen on October 29, 2014, 08:57:44 PM

@Cypherdoc

Your scenario is pretty far fetched. I'm not sure a whale will be able to cause enough panic to do much damage given that side chains will be pegged at the protocol level. A better test would be during natural panic such as the panic buying in 2011 and 2013 and subsequent crashes. At worst, people might panic in and out of side chains during such periods of volatility given the "risk free put" scenario, but arb bots should keep assets aligned in price for the most part. I highly doubt that all market participants would completely abandon one chain for another. As long as bitcoin has a block subsidy, it will not be abandoned by miners.

the whale could amplify the effect by buying scBTC on the open mkt exchange with fiat to assist the price rise. remember, speculators like growth, and this would be no different than investing early in a start up currency that has the added potential of not only the MC but an added innovation that theoretically should make it better and eventually superior.

your point about the block subsidy being a differentiating factor is a good one though. perhaps the SC could introduce a sidecoin block reward equivalent to Bitcoin at the height in the SC when it is introduced.

HeliKopterBen

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@Cypherdoc

Your scenario is pretty far fetched. I'm not sure a whale will be able to cause enough panic to do much damage given that side chains will be pegged at the protocol level. A better test would be during natural panic such as the panic buying in 2011 and 2013 and subsequent crashes. At worst, people might panic in and out of side chains during such periods of volatility given the "risk free put" scenario, but arb bots should keep assets aligned in price for the most part. I highly doubt that all market participants would completely abandon one chain for another. As long as bitcoin has a block subsidy, it will not be abandoned by miners.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

(New & Improved! Hat tip to da2ce7.)

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony. Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process.

That is why gold/silver/BTC (stuff you have) are collapsing, while insurance/food/medicine/education (stuff you need) costs are soaring.

The red giant will eventually implode in a Kondratieff Winter deflationary holocaust:

While less massive bodies of fiat may ultimately wind up as harmless white dwarfs, the USD is so large it will enter a stage equivalent to carbon-burning when runaway debt-monetization overcomes the hydrostatic equilibrium provided by petrodollars.

This will result in a supernova of hyperinflation, and finally a black hole will remain where the global reserve currency once existed.

yayayo

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Quote from: da2ce7 on October 29, 2014, 07:58:28 PM

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on October 29, 2014, 07:51:19 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on October 29, 2014, 07:44:15 PM

Quote from: smooth on October 29, 2014, 03:18:11 PM

Quote from: explorer on October 29, 2014, 03:16:24 PM

Meanwhile, Gold collapsing, bitcoin (also collapsing)

Oil too.

What is up? Just USD?

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony. Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process.

That is why gold/silver/BTC (stuff you have) are collapsing, while insurance/food/medicine/education (stuff you need) costs are soaring.

While less massive bodies of fiat may ultimately wind up as harmless white dwarfs, the USD is so large it will enter a phase equivalent to carbon-burning when runaway debt-monetization overcomes the hydrostatic equilibrium provided by petrodollars.

This will result in a supernova of hyperinflation, and finally a black hole will remain where the global reserve currency once existed.

that's good Cheesy

Really good analogy! (Except I would expect to see a deflationary collapse of the red-giant, before an hyperinflationary super-nova explosion.)

That's so good, I have to quote it again. Cheesy

I hope it will not take too long before we can watch this stellar event... hopefully we won't be destroyed by it.

ya.ya.yo!

da2ce7

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Live and Let Live

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on October 29, 2014, 07:51:19 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on October 29, 2014, 07:44:15 PM

Quote from: smooth on October 29, 2014, 03:18:11 PM

Quote from: explorer on October 29, 2014, 03:16:24 PM

Meanwhile, Gold collapsing, bitcoin (also collapsing)

Oil too.

What is up? Just USD?

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony. Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process.

That is why gold/silver/BTC (stuff you have) are collapsing, while insurance/food/medicine/education (stuff you need) costs are soaring.

While less massive bodies of fiat may ultimately wind up as harmless white dwarfs, the USD is so large it will enter a phase equivalent to carbon-burning when runaway debt-monetization overcomes the hydrostatic equilibrium provided by petrodollars.

This will result in a supernova of hyperinflation, and finally a black hole will remain where the global reserve currency once existed.

that's good Cheesy

Really good analogy! (Except I would expect to see a deflationary collapse of the red-giant, before an hyperinflationary super-nova explosion.)

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on October 29, 2014, 07:44:15 PM

Quote from: smooth on October 29, 2014, 03:18:11 PM

Quote from: explorer on October 29, 2014, 03:16:24 PM

Meanwhile, Gold collapsing, bitcoin (also collapsing)

Oil too.

What is up? Just USD?

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony. Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process.

That is why gold/silver/BTC (stuff you have) are collapsing, while insurance/food/medicine/education (stuff you need) costs are soaring.

While less massive bodies of fiat may ultimately wind up as harmless white dwarfs, the USD is so large it will enter a phase equivalent to carbon-burning when runaway debt-monetization overcomes the hydrostatic equilibrium provided by petrodollars.

This will result in a supernova of hyperinflation, and finally a black hole will remain where the global reserve currency once existed.

that's good Cheesy

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: smooth on October 29, 2014, 03:18:11 PM

Quote from: explorer on October 29, 2014, 03:16:24 PM

Meanwhile, Gold collapsing, bitcoin (also collapsing)

Oil too.

What is up? Just USD?

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony. Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process.

That is why gold/silver/BTC (stuff you have) are collapsing, while insurance/food/medicine/education (stuff you need) costs are soaring.

While less massive bodies of fiat may ultimately wind up as harmless white dwarfs, the USD is so large it will enter a phase equivalent to carbon-burning when runaway debt-monetization overcomes the hydrostatic equilibrium provided by petrodollars.

This will result in a supernova of hyperinflation, and finally a black hole will remain where the global reserve currency once existed.

justusranvier

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Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on October 29, 2014, 05:39:54 PM

Quote from: solex on October 29, 2014, 04:53:35 PM

Back to the gold topic.

There is a referendum in Switzerland, in November, which is likely to secure a yes vote that the SNB holds 20% of its assets in gold (currently at 7.6%). As soon as this passes the bank will have five years to reach the 20% target. There is no legal escape for it. Considering that the SNB balance sheet has recently blown out Fed/BoE/BoJ-style - it will have to buy up to 1,700 tons of gold in the open market - and take delivery!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-28/things-make-you-go-hmmm-swiss-gold-status-quo-showdown

I really think this will put a floor under the current gold price, and maybe even spark another medium-term rally.

Will be interesting to watch the weasels at the SNB try to wriggle out of it ... after the shit they pulled with the EUR peg anything is possible.

How sure is anyone that the 7.6% figure is actually correct?

solex

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100 satoshis -> ISO code

Quote from: Bitmore on October 29, 2014, 06:56:21 PM

Since Bitcoin shares gold's property of scarcity, would not that be a good thing for Bitcoin?

I think that public debate about a return to the principles of sound money is very good for Bitcoin. The Swiss vote will help kick-start debates which will hopefully spread wider.

The problem is that the vast majority of the population (even in OECD countries) are unaware that 100 years of out-of-control command-and-control central bank lunacy has wrecked the world's financial system. It has created trillion dollar trade imbalances, bankrupt governments, Peak Debt, pay-later consumer culture, anti-savings bias, wealth inequality, commercial inefficiency, zombie banks, rigged markets etc, etc, ad nauseum.

In the same 100 years living standards have improved due to exponential gains in science and technology, which has masked the effects of the world's dysfunctional financial system. However, things could be so much better.

That's why I like Bitcoin. It is sound money, as is gold, but fit for the 21st Century. Now the Swiss might make a lot more people learn how important these matters are.

smooth

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Quote from: brg444 on October 29, 2014, 06:19:29 PM

Quote from: smooth on October 29, 2014, 06:09:26 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 29, 2014, 04:11:30 PM

again, it's more complicated than a simple upgrade b/c an upgrade just involves downloading an updated client. my scenario requires a wholesale movement of all BTC to scBTC which exposes them to loss by hacking and identity exposure.

In order for there to be wholesale "movement" (I would say "exchange" or "locking" because I don't buy the notion of "moving" BTC), people would have to be adopting the sidechain, by downloading a client for it or using a web wallet or other intermediary client and using that mechanism to exhcnage/lock their BTC for scBTC. In other words, if most BTC is exchanged in that manner, then an economic majority has adopted the sidechain as a de facto replacement or upgrade for BTC.

do you not agree that in the face of such a predicament, BTC main chain would simply be adapted to fit the market need (feature implementation) and remove the need for any wholesale "movement"

I don't think there is any predicament at all. If the side chain is objectively a better chain as determined by stakeholders, then it is simply time to move on. There is not necessarily any reason try to try to backport everything to the original chain. BTC will have fulfilled its useful purpose of giving birth to the improved scBTC/BTC2.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: NewLiberty on October 29, 2014, 07:02:29 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 29, 2014, 06:54:29 PM

the other major flawed assumption of SC's is that it will allow calm, rigorous, controlled evaluation of an innovation. i ask, how is this possible in the face of the speculative attack i have just outlined?

Calm rigorous controlled evaluation? Is that even a thing anymore?

Maybe someone should try this on an alt?
Nah...

Innovation is disruptive, especially when accelerated to the speed of Bitcoin.

I don't think (the overlords pushing) scamchains can be stopped at this point, so we're going to find out what effect the risk-free Satoshi Put will have, whether we want to or not.

After all the Maximalist vitriol spewed at innovation in the altcoin space, I'm looking forward to watching Bitcoin be hollowed out by parasitic sidecoins. Cool

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 29, 2014, 06:54:29 PM

the other major flawed assumption of SC's is that it will allow calm, rigorous, controlled evaluation of an innovation. i ask, how is this possible in the face of the speculative attack i have just outlined?

Calm rigorous controlled evaluation? Is that even a thing anymore?

Maybe someone should try this on an alt?
Nah...

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 814. (Read 2032266 times)