Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 953.

devphp

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Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:52:17 AM

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS.

That's risk taking. Risk taking should be rewarded, nobody argues with that. However, you argue that other people taking risk, outside of Bitcoin system, somehow don't deserve to be rewarded. How is that not hypocritical?

cypherdoc

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Quote from: devphp on September 16, 2014, 12:46:32 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:42:10 AM

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

It's still not fair. And the ongoing opportunity is not fair, you can only get a few millibits and lose money, while early adopters were each getting fat blocks every day.

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS.

LiQio

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Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:42:10 AM

Quote from: LiQio on September 16, 2014, 12:37:51 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:35:30 AM

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

So are PoS coin IPOs - open to anyone who actually do the work of reading/investigating/investing.
And the later you come the harder/more expensive it gets. Again same for both system, price for later entry generally depending on the success.

devphp

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Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:42:10 AM

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

It's still not fair. And the ongoing opportunity is not fair, you can only get a few millibits and lose money, while early adopters were each getting fat blocks every day.

See, if you go into the unfairness arguement, this all sounds ridiculous. Where do ideas of fairness come from anyway? Are you guys trying to build communism? Well, you have to share your thousands of Bitcoins then with other 7 bln. people. Equally. If you don't stop talking about fairness, this just looks plain stupid.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: LiQio on September 16, 2014, 12:37:51 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:35:30 AM

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: justusranvier on September 15, 2014, 05:52:06 PM

Quote from: _mr_e on September 15, 2014, 03:16:59 PM

Why does it have to be us vs them? Why must the crypto space be so divided? I am not a "pos guy". I simply see some value and utility in a well designed system and want to share that with others, just as I do with bitcoin.

Fiat is the enemy here.

Fiat is not the enemy.

Bad money is the enemy.

In terms of its trust model PoS is more similar to fiat money than it is similar to Bitcoin.

Fiat money today = bad money.

Debt based. End of story.

LiQio

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Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:35:30 AM

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

devphp

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Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:35:30 AM

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Yeah, I feel your pain. I wasn't there either when they were doing the IPO. Well, the world moves on whether it's fair to us or not. It's not fair that I wasn't there mining Bitcoins in 2009-2013 either. Just like 99.999% other people.

cypherdoc

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Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

devphp

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This conversation is meaningless. As always.

justusranvier

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Quote from: devphp on September 16, 2014, 12:30:54 AM

Try to get a few people to agree to shoot themselves in the foot, I'd like to see you do that

Have you been in a coma since 2007?

devphp

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Quote from: justusranvier on September 16, 2014, 12:27:26 AM

Quote from: devphp on September 16, 2014, 12:23:23 AM

We don't need to discuss that masters of Bitcoin are two-three biggest mining pools, do we? While in NXT over 300 individual accounts successfully generate blocks. Well, who is more centralized?

We don't, because it doesn't matter.

In a PoW system, if the three largest mining miners decide to misbehave it's at least possible in principle for somebody else to build out more hashing power and compete with them. The miners can not block competition via any other method than expending more real opportunity cost to do so.

In a PoS system, if the majority of the stakeholders decide to misbehave then the system is fucked. Stakeholders are insulated from competition because they only lose stake if they choose to sell their coins to their competitors.

In a PoW system, if a cartel forms it's an annoyance.

PoS systems are inherently designed to form and protect cartels.

It's hard to get 2 people to agree with each other. It's impossible to get a few hundred people to agree to collude especially when their financial future depends on proper functioning of the network. Try to get a few people to agree to shoot themselves in the foot, I'd like to see you do that

devphp

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Quote from: cypherdoc on September 16, 2014, 12:25:42 AM

You're attempting to equate POW & POS by saying they are both just code.

Wrong. POW involves a huge network of miners that have paid blood, sweat, tears, and money to build and maintain. You can't replace that.

Paying blood, sweat, tears and money doesn't guarantee anything, much less profits. That is still irrelevant to how it'd look different in the eyes of population who are charged more for less, while they could pay less to get more. By getting more I mean a larger share of a different crypto currency that does just the same, and some of those do much more too.

justusranvier

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Quote from: devphp on September 16, 2014, 12:23:23 AM

We don't need to discuss that masters of Bitcoin are two-three biggest mining pools, do we? While in NXT over 300 individual accounts successfully generate blocks. Well, who is more centralized?

We don't, because it doesn't matter.

In a PoW system, if the three largest mining miners decide to misbehave it's at least possible in principle for somebody else to build out more hashing power and compete with them. The miners can not block competition via any other method than expending more real opportunity cost to do so.

In a PoS system, if the majority of the stakeholders decide to misbehave then the system is fucked. Stakeholders are insulated from competition because they only lose stake if they choose to sell their coins to their competitors.

In a PoW system, if a cartel forms it's an annoyance.

PoS systems are inherently designed to form and protect cartels.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: devphp on September 16, 2014, 12:07:03 AM

Quote from: jgarzik on September 15, 2014, 09:00:22 PM

"Anyone can compile" is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you can prove the release team binaries match the source code exactly.

At least now we all agree there is source code, that's a good start

Quote from: justusranvier on September 15, 2014, 05:52:06 PM

Fiat is not the enemy.

Bad money is the enemy.

In terms of its trust model PoS is more similar to fiat money than it is similar to Bitcoin.

In terms of 99.99999% of the population it's irrelevant, they have to buy it, doesn't matter if it's PoW or PoS.
And you're right, it's not fiat that is the enemy, it's uncontrolled money printing that is the enemy. Well, both PoW and PoS models have that under control. And because most of the population can't be miners and have to buy it, they don't care how exactly that crypto is produced.

You're attempting to equate POW & POS by saying they are both just code.

Wrong. POW involves a huge network of miners that have paid blood, sweat, tears, and money to build and maintain. You can't replace that.

devphp

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Quote from: justusranvier on September 16, 2014, 12:19:37 AM

Quote from: devphp on September 16, 2014, 12:07:03 AM

Well, both PoW and PoS models have that under control.

PoS is in no way comparable to PoW and it's misleading and deceptive to market as such.

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

PoS is the central bank/Federal Reserve system with a different set of masters. Fuck that.

We don't need to discuss that masters of Bitcoin are two-three biggest mining pools, do we? While in NXT over 300 individual accounts successfully generate blocks. Well, who is more centralized?

99.9999% of the population don't care which crypto they'd buy and which algo it runs on. Prime example of this is Dogecoin users. Exactly, they say 'fuck that' to expensive Bitcoin and use their own coin, and their community is large, check reddit.

justusranvier

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Quote from: devphp on September 16, 2014, 12:07:03 AM

Well, both PoW and PoS models have that under control.

PoS is in no way comparable to PoW and it's misleading and deceptive to market as such.

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

PoS is the central bank/Federal Reserve system with a different set of masters. Fuck that.

devphp

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Quote from: jgarzik on September 15, 2014, 09:00:22 PM

"Anyone can compile" is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you can prove the release team binaries match the source code exactly.

At least now we all agree there is source code, that's a good start

Quote from: justusranvier on September 15, 2014, 05:52:06 PM

Fiat is not the enemy.

Bad money is the enemy.

In terms of its trust model PoS is more similar to fiat money than it is similar to Bitcoin.

In terms of 99.99999% of the population it's irrelevant, they have to buy it, doesn't matter if it's PoW or PoS.
And you're right, it's not fiat that is the enemy, it's uncontrolled money printing that is the enemy. Well, both PoW and PoS models have that under control. And because most of the population can't be miners and have to buy it, they don't care how exactly that crypto is produced.

cypherdoc

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Paging Carlton Banks!

just saw you on Dance With The Stars! lookin' gud! best dance of the nite!

yeah baby!

sidhujag

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There is no way id buy gold here.. need a bullish engulf to end a downtrend.

We probably go below 1181 since there was a fake uptrend that we see is broken now. No engulf no good.

Should test 1310ish before the slide

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 953. (Read 2032274 times)