Guy loses 240-600 BTC trying to short - page 3.

deisik

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Quote from: Amph on January 05, 2017, 03:50:30 AM

it doesn't make sense to me, the practice of shorting, it's selling because you think the price is going down, if it is your or other money shouldn't matter at all

it's not spreading misinformation, that was my definition of it since the beginning, i didn't even have a look at it to wikipedia, therefore i'm not in agreement with that definition

You are spreading misinformation because your "definition" has nothing to do with the long accepted and established one. Essentially, you are perverting the meaning of the term that had been in use long before your birth. It is no problem (as I said) if you use it to yourself, but English is not even your mother tongue, so why do you ever come down to telling this? Nevertheless, what is your definition for someone selling stocks, currency futures or whatever which he doesn't own?

What is your term for a short sell as everyone understands this?

Pursuer

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Where is my ring of blades...

this is the problem that we see a lot in crypto currency markets, I am not specifically talking about the guy that OP is mentioning but more general thing.
there are lots of newbies who read something on the internet, learn it and then test it and since it works for them for a couple of times they think it can work forever so they go in big and take risks but they don't know everything because of being a newbie.
and there are many topics around that make this situation worse, they teach you these things without warning about things that can go wrong in trading and how to prevent them.

Amph

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it doesn't make sense to me, the practice of shorting, it's selling because you think the price is going down, if it is your or other money shouldn't matter at all

it's not spreading misinformation, that was my definition of it since the beginning, i didn't even have a look at it to wikipedia, therefore i'm not in agreement with that definition

deisik

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Quote from: Amph on January 05, 2017, 03:04:21 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 03, 2017, 03:43:30 AM

Did you read the OP (and the twitter post linked in it)?

If he sold his own funds, it wouldn't be a short sell in the first place. It would be just a sell, as what thousands people are doing on a regular basis every day. If you read the opening post, you would get an idea that it was a futures market where you buy and sell contracts, not actual bitcoins. The only way he could sell a futures contract without going short is when he bought it before and sold it later thus closing his position either at a loss or profit. In this case, it would be profit, not loss, since the price is going up

if you are trading shorting simple mean to buy back after selling, it does not really matter if they are your funds or not, it doesn't make sense to say that you can't short with your money

the same for going long

Stop spreading misinformation. And as far as I remember, this is not the first time you are claiming something you don't know or use your understanding which has nothing with the established terminology. Technically, if you sell something which you own, you basically close your long position in that, about which I wrote right away in my post. As I once told you, you may think up anything you please, just don't tell this as if it were an accepted convention...

Short selling (from Wikipedia)

Quote

the practice of selling securities or other financial instruments that are not currently owned (usually borrowed), and subsequently repurchasing them ("covering")

Short selling (from Investopedia)

Quote

Short selling is the selling of a stock that the seller doesn't own. More specifically, a short sale is the sale of a security that isn't owned by the seller, but that is promised to be delivered

Though I don't think anyone would be interested in your definition since it obviously interferes with the accepted one

Amph

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Quote from: deisik on January 03, 2017, 03:43:30 AM

Quote from: Amph on January 03, 2017, 03:35:45 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 03, 2017, 03:00:12 AM

Quote from: darkangel11 on January 02, 2017, 07:52:10 PM

He didn't lose the money, he just sold and got nothing from it. He lost what he could've gained, money he never had in hand.
You could say you lost as well, because a week ago you could've sold everything you had, put money in bitcoin and profit

Mate, are you serious?

If he didn't lose any money, who has profited then? Shorting means that he first had to borrow bitcoins (read pay interest on borrowed funds), then he sold the borrowed bitcoins hoping that the price will fall (it is called short sell). When the price actually went up, he had to buy back all the bitcoins he had sold earlier, at a higher price. Doesn't it mean that to buy back the same number of bitcoins he had to pay more dollars? And that would constitute his loss (you can calculate the losses in bitcoins if you wish). If the price went down (as the dude expected), he would again buy back the bitcoins, now at a lower price with less dollars, and the difference would make up his profit (you can count the profits in bitcoins as well)

not really maybe he had those bitcoin, i mean those bitcoin were owned by him, and he was shorting(which is stupid, with a bull market) to make even more

so right now he simply can not re enter the market anymore without losing, but he can keep the funds and go away

Did you read the OP (and the twitter post linked in it)?

If he sold his own funds, it wouldn't be a short sell in the first place. It would be just a sell, as what thousands people are doing on a regular basis every day. If you read the opening post, you would get an idea that it was a futures market where you buy and sell contracts, not actual bitcoins. The only way he could sell a futures contract without going short is when he bought it before and sold it later thus closing his position either at a loss or profit. In this case, it would be profit, not loss, since the price is going up

if you are trading shorting simple mean to buy back after selling, it does not really matter if they are your funds or not, it doesn't make sense to say that you can't short with your money

the same for going long

Chinesegandalf

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We trader one can predict where the market will go ,unless you are BP(WHALE) btc holder maybe you can give little Bit of impact on the flow of the market movement.
My 2cent. 😁

deisik

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Quote from: manselr on January 03, 2017, 01:09:15 PM

Quote from: electronicash on January 03, 2017, 12:45:31 PM

Quote from: Doamader on January 02, 2017, 02:31:21 PM

Forex is a hard thing to predict, some people has sucessfull transactions for a while, the question is for how long they will be able to keep into the gree light. I am following a thread that looks like the op has some knowledge and information to play and stay on green. But playing short at any currencie is the same to ask to loose your money, i do remember some broker i had used changes more then others brokers, and then i realized why, those broker were eating the short up and down. Even the expert traders loose, i do remember an etoro trader that had 100 sucess trades and were stucked with one open trade at euro when it were 1.47 against dollar, those still open till today, soo if they fail to close their trading positions and do loose some money why others will only make money?

Forex is alot simplier actually the fact there there are indicators and economic news are sent online in seconds with the help of internet. The only thing that is hard to learn is when to exit a trade. And also a sudden news that can affect the market isn't something anyone can predict. no different to crypto but its more controlled by whales as of now.

Im yet to see someone with solid, year-after-year forex gains, or any gains at all if the person doing it is daytrading. I just don't believe in daytrading at all, I think it's pure luck. We can anticipate what's going to happen, but not exactly when, and daytrading is gambling with micromovements which is just market noise. It's not the same being in january 2015 when most smart people were telling other people to buy Bitcoin because it was super undervalued, it was predictable that we would sooner or later go to 1k+ again and hit a new ATH, but it's simply not possible to know what's going to happen in the small timelapses that daytraders play with.

These are mostly HFT systems which are earning through arbitrage windows opening between exchanges that trade foreign currencies. The arbitrage opportunities typically last only a few seconds if not milliseconds, and the systems that are located closest to such an exchange (e.g. across the road) or at the exchange itself (e.g. in the same building) can get relatively small but steady profits by exploiting these opportunities at every price movement, however small it might be...

That's why real estate as well as renting is very expensive around major exchanges

Mr.Nath

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on January 02, 2017, 11:30:35 AM

https://twitter.com/whalecalls/status/815598251319640064

Quote

Okcoin $BTCUSD Quarterly futures has liquidated a short position of 47857 contract at 1,065.58 - 2017-01-02 00:38:56

I tried to warm my friends on IRC about the dangers of shorting, but they wouldn't listen.. they think they can time the market, when this is impossible, you can only look forward to trying to predict the fundamentals, and the fundamentals are clearly telling us to buy and hold long term. People that bought every dip instead of trying to be the smartass that tries to short has made massive gains this year.

I think that guy was simply greedy on one part and on the other part, he's a great risk taker. Fear such people as they can bounce back anytime.....

He should have simply tested the market with at most 5BTC.

manselr

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Quote from: electronicash on January 03, 2017, 12:45:31 PM

Quote from: Doamader on January 02, 2017, 02:31:21 PM

Forex is a hard thing to predict, some people has sucessfull transactions for a while, the question is for how long they will be able to keep into the gree light. I am following a thread that looks like the op has some knowledge and information to play and stay on green. But playing short at any currencie is the same to ask to loose your money, i do remember some broker i had used changes more then others brokers, and then i realized why, those broker were eating the short up and down. Even the expert traders loose, i do remember an etoro trader that had 100 sucess trades and were stucked with one open trade at euro when it were 1.47 against dollar, those still open till today, soo if they fail to close their trading positions and do loose some money why others will only make money?

Forex is alot simplier actually the fact there there are indicators and economic news are sent online in seconds with the help of internet. The only thing that is hard to learn is when to exit a trade. And also a sudden news that can affect the market isn't something anyone can predict. no different to crypto but its more controlled by whales as of now.

Im yet to see someone with solid, year-after-year forex gains, or any gains at all if the person doing it is daytrading. I just don't believe in daytrading at all, I think it's pure luck. We can anticipate what's going to happen, but not exactly when, and daytrading is gambling with micromovements which is just market noise. It's not the same being in january 2015 when most smart people were telling other people to buy Bitcoin because it was super undervalued, it was predictable that we would sooner or later go to 1k+ again and hit a new ATH, but it's simply not possible to know what's going to happen in the small timelapses that daytraders play with.

electronicash

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Quote from: Doamader on January 02, 2017, 02:31:21 PM

Forex is a hard thing to predict, some people has sucessfull transactions for a while, the question is for how long they will be able to keep into the gree light. I am following a thread that looks like the op has some knowledge and information to play and stay on green. But playing short at any currencie is the same to ask to loose your money, i do remember some broker i had used changes more then others brokers, and then i realized why, those broker were eating the short up and down. Even the expert traders loose, i do remember an etoro trader that had 100 sucess trades and were stucked with one open trade at euro when it were 1.47 against dollar, those still open till today, soo if they fail to close their trading positions and do loose some money why others will only make money?

Forex is alot simplier actually the fact there there are indicators and economic news are sent online in seconds with the help of internet. The only thing that is hard to learn is when to exit a trade. And also a sudden news that can affect the market isn't something anyone can predict. no different to crypto but its more controlled by whales as of now.

pitham1

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Quote from: Barbut on January 03, 2017, 08:28:56 AM

Quote from: epitome on January 03, 2017, 07:40:03 AM

Quote from: Xester on January 02, 2017, 09:15:23 PM

Shorting is a kind of game not suitable for bitcoin but it could be very useful in other altcoins. Bitcoins characteristics being the prototype cryptocurrency is unlike any other alternative coins in the market. Bitcoin should be hold and dont sell in a very short span of time if you want to profit from the price inflation that happens all the time. It is also true that many have gain large profit from holding their bitcoins and I have the same view as I am saving some amounts in case a skyrocket price happens.

How can short selling be safe with other alt currencies.Future trading is a big risk in this unregulated market and the price can be manipulated without any specific reasons and with this sole factor i would suggest everyone to stop doing these sort of things.

In the past many traders make a good profit with shorting. It`s not connected or more useful just with other altcoins. It`s more about feeling a moment when to sell when to hold, when to buy. This three things makes one man a good trader I think.
Just a year ago when I was here, price moving was ideal for shorting. This summer we had situation when bitcoin was above 700 $ and then drop back to 500 $, that is also ideal times for shorting. I think we can see this again, just how to notice this before it happens?

It is always easier in hindsight to know the correct time to short. People might have expected a pullback from $700 to $500 levels and hence decided to short. Unfortunately, they got the direction wrong and incurred huge losses.

Barbut

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Quote from: epitome on January 03, 2017, 07:40:03 AM

Quote from: Xester on January 02, 2017, 09:15:23 PM

Shorting is a kind of game not suitable for bitcoin but it could be very useful in other altcoins. Bitcoins characteristics being the prototype cryptocurrency is unlike any other alternative coins in the market. Bitcoin should be hold and dont sell in a very short span of time if you want to profit from the price inflation that happens all the time. It is also true that many have gain large profit from holding their bitcoins and I have the same view as I am saving some amounts in case a skyrocket price happens.

How can short selling be safe with other alt currencies.Future trading is a big risk in this unregulated market and the price can be manipulated without any specific reasons and with this sole factor i would suggest everyone to stop doing these sort of things.

In the past many traders make a good profit with shorting. It`s not connected or more useful just with other altcoins. It`s more about feeling a moment when to sell when to hold, when to buy. This three things makes one man a good trader I think.
Just a year ago when I was here, price moving was ideal for shorting. This summer we had situation when bitcoin was above 700 $ and then drop back to 500 $, that is also ideal times for shorting. I think we can see this again, just how to notice this before it happens?

qiwoman2

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WOW that is a terrible loss but I think many have done it because they never ever would have believed that bitcoin could ever reach these kind of highs. I knew about bitcoin when it was a dollar and am forever kicking myself that I didn't buy a few hundred. if I had a few hundred bitcoin now my whole life would be sorted. Cry

epitome

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Quote from: Xester on January 02, 2017, 09:15:23 PM

Shorting is a kind of game not suitable for bitcoin but it could be very useful in other altcoins. Bitcoins characteristics being the prototype cryptocurrency is unlike any other alternative coins in the market. Bitcoin should be hold and dont sell in a very short span of time if you want to profit from the price inflation that happens all the time. It is also true that many have gain large profit from holding their bitcoins and I have the same view as I am saving some amounts in case a skyrocket price happens.

How can short selling be safe with other alt currencies.Future trading is a big risk in this unregulated market and the price can be manipulated without any specific reasons and with this sole factor i would suggest everyone to stop doing these sort of things.

deisik

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Quote from: Amph on January 03, 2017, 03:35:45 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 03, 2017, 03:00:12 AM

Quote from: darkangel11 on January 02, 2017, 07:52:10 PM

He didn't lose the money, he just sold and got nothing from it. He lost what he could've gained, money he never had in hand.
You could say you lost as well, because a week ago you could've sold everything you had, put money in bitcoin and profit

Mate, are you serious?

If he didn't lose any money, who has profited then? Shorting means that he first had to borrow bitcoins (read pay interest on borrowed funds), then he sold the borrowed bitcoins hoping that the price will fall (it is called short sell). When the price actually went up, he had to buy back all the bitcoins he had sold earlier, at a higher price. Doesn't it mean that to buy back the same number of bitcoins he had to pay more dollars? And that would constitute his loss (you can calculate the losses in bitcoins if you wish). If the price went down (as the dude expected), he would again buy back the bitcoins, now at a lower price with less dollars, and the difference would make up his profit (you can count the profits in bitcoins as well)

not really maybe he had those bitcoin, i mean those bitcoin were owned by him, and he was shorting(which is stupid, with a bull market) to make even more

so right now he simply can not re enter the market anymore without losing, but he can keep the funds and go away

Did you read the OP (and the twitter post linked in it)?

If he sold his own funds, it wouldn't be a short sell in the first place. It would be just a sell, as what thousands people are doing on a regular basis every day. If you read the opening post, you would get an idea that it was a futures market where you buy and sell contracts, not actual bitcoins. The only way he could sell a futures contract without going short is when he bought it before and sold it later thus closing his position either at a loss or profit. In this case, it would be profit, not loss, since the price is going up

Amph

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Quote from: deisik on January 03, 2017, 03:00:12 AM

Quote from: darkangel11 on January 02, 2017, 07:52:10 PM

He didn't lose the money, he just sold and got nothing from it. He lost what he could've gained, money he never had in hand.
You could say you lost as well, because a week ago you could've sold everything you had, put money in bitcoin and profit

Mate, are you serious?

If he didn't lose any money, who has profited then? Shorting means that he first had to borrow bitcoins (read pay interest on borrowed funds), then he sold the borrowed bitcoins hoping that the price will fall (it is called short sell). When the price actually went up, he had to buy back all the bitcoins he had sold earlier, at a higher price. Doesn't it mean that to buy back the same number of bitcoins he had to pay more dollars? And that would constitute his loss (you can calculate the losses in bitcoins if you wish). If the price went down (as the dude expected), he would again buy back the bitcoins, now at a lower price with less dollars, and the difference would make up his profit (you can count the profits in bitcoins as well)

not really maybe he had those bitcoin, i mean those bitcoin were owned by him, and he was shorting(which is stupid, with a bull market) to make even more

so right now he simply can not re enter the market anymore without losing, but he can keep the funds and go away

deisik

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Quote from: darkangel11 on January 02, 2017, 07:52:10 PM

He didn't lose the money, he just sold and got nothing from it. He lost what he could've gained, money he never had in hand.
You could say you lost as well, because a week ago you could've sold everything you had, put money in bitcoin and profit

Mate, are you serious?

If he didn't lose any money, who has profited then? Shorting means that he first had to borrow bitcoins (read pay interest on borrowed funds), then he sold the borrowed bitcoins hoping that the price will fall (it is called a short sell). When the price actually went up, he had to buy back all the bitcoins he had sold earlier, at a higher price. Doesn't it mean that to buy back the same number of bitcoins he had to pay more dollars? And that would constitute his loss (you can calculate the losses in bitcoins if you wish). If the price went down (as the dude expected), he would again buy back the bitcoins, now at a lower price with less dollars, and the difference would make up his profit (you can count the profits in bitcoins as well)

Omega Weapon

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on January 02, 2017, 11:30:35 AM

https://twitter.com/whalecalls/status/815598251319640064

Quote

Okcoin $BTCUSD Quarterly futures has liquidated a short position of 47857 contract at 1,065.58 - 2017-01-02 00:38:56

I tried to warm my friends on IRC about the dangers of shorting, but they wouldn't listen.. they think they can time the market, when this is impossible, you can only look forward to trying to predict the fundamentals, and the fundamentals are clearly telling us to buy and hold long term. People that bought every dip instead of trying to be the smartass that tries to short has made massive gains this year.

What a terrible trade, but people like this try to play it smart, to be more intelligent than anyone and end up fooling only themselves, if instead this person just bought bitcoin he will be enjoying easy profits.

X7

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That's quite a position to take in this strong rally, there will always be that guy who tries to call the top. It is just glorified gambling with a plethora of justifications from every individual who does it.

ethereumhunter

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Quote from: BingoDog on January 02, 2017, 02:35:13 PM

Bad period for short position. I suppose that he thought the price will fall because it's going up for a long time now but there are no actual signs for this so he made the wrong decision. This was more hazard them rational decision and that costs him but he learned something for the future.

maybe if the bitcoin price is really give true signal and then getting down, we can short but for now, while the price is increase, i think its not good for short. its hard to make decision about short or not if we don't know and don't see the chart and the sign, so its a worth lesson for us to learn and i hope we don't have this experience like that guy.

Topic: Guy loses 240-600 BTC trying to short - page 3. (Read 3697 times)