HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s - page 336.

mgio

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Quote from: thepostman on December 25, 2013, 02:06:37 PM

Quote from: Bogart on December 25, 2013, 01:42:51 PM

...
There is nothing inherently wrong with the preorder model...

As far as miners are concerned, almost everything is wrong with the pre-order model.
It encourages operations like HashFast, players who enter the manufacturing field risking none of their own money. If their gamble pays off, they become rich. If it doesn't and the company fails, the actors have lost nothing, while profiting from the money they have paid themselves and their friends in salaries.

The problem is that no one has stepped up and sued one of these companies for fraud. Both BFL and Avalon should be out of business by now but they know their customers are lazy.

cedivad

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Quote from: mgio on December 25, 2013, 03:44:42 PM

Hashfast are angels compared to them.

Losing 85% of your BTC investment is being an angel? Who lost 85% or even 50%+ with Avalon?

Entropy-uc

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Quote from: itod on December 25, 2013, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Entropy-uc on December 25, 2013, 11:57:33 AM

Don't make the mistake of making equivalence between Avalon and any other supplier. What Yifu and Ngzhang did was far worse than what any one else has done in this space by a very long distance.

Orly? What Yifu did is by order of magnitude more honest than what ScamFast did, and this comes from a both Avalon and HF victim. Eventually we all got full BTC amount back from Yifu, his greatest sin is destroying the dream of small miners to ever get in the fair mining game with the big boys. ScamFast deliberately lied with the intention to keep most of the BTC and never refund them in full to customers. Avalon is greed and incompetence, HF is pure scam, how can Avalon be worse?

You obviously haven't been around long enough to have any perspective on the subject beyond your own losses.

BFL promised false shipping dates every day for over a year to keep their pre order cash flow running. There was no batches, no attempt to give any realistic perspective of time to delivery if you ordered. Just lies from Josh and abuse against anyone who asked for refunds or actual facts. Hashfast has about 10 months to go before they come close to matching this.

As for Avalon, I calculate Yifu stole on the order of 250 000 bitcoins fron his customers by keeping batch 2 for himself. Simon has done a terrific job of promising things he can't deliver. He hasn't stolen what he promised to deliver as of yet.

mgio

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Quote from: itod on December 25, 2013, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Entropy-uc on December 25, 2013, 11:57:33 AM

Don't make the mistake of making equivalence between Avalon and any other supplier. What Yifu and Ngzhang did was far worse than what any one else has done in this space by a very long distance.

Orly? What Yifu did is by order of magnitude more honest than what ScamFast did, and this comes from a both Avalon and HF victim. Eventually we all got full BTC amount back from Yifu, his greatest sin is destroying the dream of small miners to ever get in the fair mining game with the big boys. ScamFast deliberately lied with the intention to keep most of the BTC and never refund them in full to customers. Avalon is greed and incompetence, HF is pure scam, how can Avalon be worse?

Actually wait Avalon does was waaaay worse. They held onto batch 2 orders for 2-3 months while THEY MINED WITH THEM. So not only did they delay shipment if their miners, they actually STOLE money from their customers. I personally lost 60 bitcoins on my batch 2 order because of them. So yeah, Yifu is scum of the earth, almost as bad at the retards from BFL.

Hashfast are angels compared to them.

jspielberg

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The sell at 150 is my speculation... Not fact. I seem to recall in this thread someone saying that they had a successful sales one weekend... But I would have to go searching.

I seem to recall cypherdoc stating it, though I maybe misremembering.

Some official information sure would be helpful.

Edit:
I think this was the comment that lead me to believe that they sold a bunch in late August.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3036903

thepostman

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Quote from: Bogart on December 25, 2013, 01:42:51 PM

...
There is nothing inherently wrong with the preorder model...

As far as miners are concerned, almost everything is wrong with the pre-order model.
It encourages operations like HashFast, players who enter the manufacturing field risking none of their own money. If their gamble pays off, they become rich. If it doesn't and the company fails, the actors have lost nothing, while profiting from the money they have paid themselves and their friends in salaries.

itod

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^ Will code for Bitcoins

Quote from: Entropy-uc on December 25, 2013, 11:57:33 AM

Don't make the mistake of making equivalence between Avalon and any other supplier. What Yifu and Ngzhang did was far worse than what any one else has done in this space by a very long distance.

Orly? What Yifu did is by order of magnitude more honest than what ScamFast did, and this comes from a both Avalon and HF victim. Eventually we all got full BTC amount back from Yifu, his greatest sin is destroying the dream of small miners to ever get in the fair mining game with the big boys. ScamFast deliberately lied with the intention to keep most of the BTC and never refund them in full to customers. Avalon is greed and incompetence, HF is pure scam, how can Avalon be worse?

Bogart

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Quote from: jspielberg on December 25, 2013, 01:09:47 PM

A judgement of bitcoins against hashfast would most likely kill the company at this point (my guess is they sold the bulk at ~$150).

I find it unlikely that it will drive sobriety into the ASIC producers.

If I had to guess, it will instead foster the development of private self-mines a la 100TH and Asic Miner, and companies selling hardware to the public will be a thing of the past.

A deserved death then. One they brought upon themselves.

I think that such a judgement would indeed serve as a warning to other would-be vendors not to repeat HF's mistakes. Had this occurred with BFL, HF customers might not be in this position now.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the preorder model. What's wrong is intentionally misrepresenting the timetable and the risks involved, lying about the progress made, and trying to change the terms of the sale after money has been paid.

cedivad

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LOL? Don't sue HF because poor company scamming the public will be things of the past in the future if you do so? Really? And they sold at 150 when everyone else was sure that the price was skyrocketing? Yes, sure.
I sold at the top and doubled my BTC stake myself, do you think that HF wouldn't have been able to do so? I don't believe it.

Marry Christmas everyone.

jspielberg

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A judgement of bitcoins against hashfast would most likely kill the company at this point (my guess is they sold the bulk at ~$150).

I find it unlikely that it will drive sobriety into the ASIC producers.

If I had to guess, it will instead foster the development of private self-mines a la 100TH and Asic Miner, and companies selling hardware to the public will be a thing of the past.

Syke

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Quote from: dopamine on December 25, 2013, 01:00:06 PM

How long will it take for HashFast gets the Scam Tag?

Two weeks after BFL does.

dopamine

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How long will it take for HashFast gets the Scam Tag?

cedivad

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Quote from: Entropy-uc on December 25, 2013, 12:46:09 PM

But I expect you will take delivery of your machines and shut up, like everyone else in your shoes.

This is the only thing that i can assure you won't happen. Unless they overdeliver and create a new standard for how to compensate the customers that you scammed, but i don't think that it will be the case.
However many told me that what you said will happen - people will just shut up once they have they useless machines. I can just hope this to be wrong.

Entropy-uc

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Quote from: cedivad on December 25, 2013, 12:40:45 PM

I'm sorry entropy, but you are wrong. At least in my case and in many others. It wasn't greed that made me buy from HF, it was stupidity. I knew that a full ROI was improbable to say it at last, but i wanted to mine anyway.

However, accusing us doesn't help HF. Btw, if HF delivered as promised in October, and delivered the MPP as promised, we would be in a good position.

So the problem isn't the stupid customer, the problem is the company of scammers.

Personally, I hope you sue, and get a ruling for a refund in Bitcoin. It would be a good precedent, and force some sobriety on the supplier side of the table.

But I expect you will take delivery of your machines and shut up, like everyone else in your shoes.

Greed or stupidity; both have the same result. A market where rational investors are on the sidelines. (or taking money from the greedy fools - it's a shame I don't have the lack of ethics required for that)

ninjarobot

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Mine Silent, Mine Deep

There is enough blame to pass around for everybody. Merry Xmas!

cedivad

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I'm sorry entropy, but you are wrong. At least in my case and in many others. It wasn't greed that made me buy from HF, it was stupidity. I knew that a full ROI was improbable to say it at last, but i wanted to mine anyway.

However, accusing us doesn't help HF. Btw, if HF delivered as promised in October, and delivered the MPP as promised, we would be in a good position.

So the problem isn't the stupid customer, the problem is the company of scammers.

Entropy-uc

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Quote from: gmaxwell on December 25, 2013, 12:18:44 PM

Quote from: Entropy-uc on December 25, 2013, 11:57:33 AM

Those who bought the first batch without proof of a tapeout knew they were buying into hot air, but greed overwhelmed any rational consideration of doing business on reasonable terms.

Nah, run the numbers on what return was expected even if everything had gone according to plan. No one who can multiply bought in here because of an abundance of greed, it was never _that_ attractive an offer. The deal needed sweeteners like MPP, refund in BTC, in person meetings, and a partnership with an experienced design house before it sounded attractive.

Sorry, but greed is the only thing that can rationalize buying hardware in advance of a working prototype for terms that are 100% down payment and no equity position in the company.

Perhaps you were aware of the math that made the offer appear not compelling. I am willing to bet that most buyers considered 1 Ph/s by this time as very unlikely. And the 10 Ph/s we actually have would have been considered laughable.

A review of mining bond prices, or cloud hashing prices should make it obvious that the market is still dominated by math challenged fools.

Hopefully this latest debacle will teach people to insist on doing business on reasonable terms. It has been an intensely frustrating 18 months being driven out of the market by irrational "TAKE MY MONEY NOW!" speculators.

gmaxwell

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Quote from: Entropy-uc on December 25, 2013, 11:57:33 AM

Those who bought the first batch without proof of a tapeout knew they were buying into hot air, but greed overwhelmed any rational consideration of doing business on reasonable terms.

Nah, run the numbers on what return was expected even if everything had gone according to plan. No one who can multiply bought in here because of an abundance of greed, it was never _that_ attractive an offer. The deal needed sweeteners like MPP, refund in BTC, in person meetings, and a partnership with an experienced design house before it sounded attractive.

Entropy-uc

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Quote from: jermwerty on December 25, 2013, 06:49:45 AM

Quote from: gmaxwell on December 25, 2013, 06:15:11 AM

A slightly OT example: For those following along at home who don't get why HF batch 1 customers are so unhappy about their "october" batch 1 units, compare: Instead of paying 55 BTC months ago for a 400GH HF batch 1 unit with uncertain delivery they could have sat comfortably on their coin and today ordered 3.1 TH/s of antminer for immediate delivery for the same price (or just got 360GH/s for 6.3 BTC). Even figuring it in terms of USD, the little antminer devices are lower cost per GH/s than hashfast batch 1 devices which are still not shipping.

*sigh....

Yes I wish I had an early KnC order and a Batch1 Avalon. But I didn't. I had a batch 2/3 and same thing happened to that Batch 3. Still pissed. At least I didn't have BFL.

In bitcoin mining one in the hand beats two in the bush any day... Pre-orders are simply fail, even KnC would have been fail if BTC hadn't appreciated....

Don't make the mistake of making equivalence between Avalon and any other supplier. What Yifu and Ngzhang did was far worse than what any one else has done in this space by a very long distance.

Yifu and Ngzhang stole the batch 2 machines to mine for themselves. Eventually they delivered the batch 3 machines (months late) to batch 2 and 3 customers.

Hashfast simply followed the BFL model of promising something that couldn't be delivered. After the BFL example, it was trivial for anyone to know that they were overpromising based on semiconductor fabrication timelines. Those who bought the first batch without proof of a tapeout knew they were buying into hot air, but greed overwhelmed any rational consideration of doing business on reasonable terms.

Like BFL before them, increases in the exchange rate will bail out Hashfast's early investors. And BFL and Hashfast will continue to have customers because greed overwhelms all common sense in Bitcoin.

starsoccer9

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Quote from: ImI on December 24, 2013, 07:31:36 PM

95% increase month over month over month? Bullshit. Not gonna happen.

As i stated, right now our average is 94%. Also it has gone up in past months as much as 140%

Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s - page 336. (Read 880461 times)