Have Satoshi dream failed? - page 4.

Gyfts

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Quote from: Raflesia on December 09, 2022, 05:08:00 PM

Hasn't tax existed long before even bitcoin existed?
I think something new requires a process and in this case it doesn't mean that with bitcoin the tax will disappear immediately because in this case the bitcoin policy is still hampered.
On the other hand, currently there are several countries that actually have very low taxes or maybe even completely free, but that doesn't mean that all countries have to follow it directly because in this case it takes time, of course, especially for some small countries, taxes are always one of the budgets. which has indeed been converted into infrastructure to maintain and develop the country.

Precisely, I don't know what OP is on about.

Ditch fiat currencies entirely and your crypto is still going to be taxed by the jurisdiction you live in. If you don't agree to taxation, then leave the jurisdiction. I'm not one of those "taxation is theft" type of people and I couldn't imagine in a world that's only cryptocurrency that taxation magically disappears leaving the state to generate zero revenue.

Crypto gives you the freedom from unlawful or unnecessary government control with your finances. There isn't anything unlawful about taxes.

so98nn

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We are surely at the stage where presence of authorities has increased a lot with the time. I find it intriguing because they were not that much involved when bitcoin was really new and it was considered to be a bubble and nothing more. As spons as market gone crazy so as to governments fabled by the universe of bitcoin.

However, you can not deny the fact that if we are living in this world then it’s not up to the bitcoin (p2p services) to have transfer methodology. Bitcoin is just an alternative to traditional system with vision that everyone can have free will of transfer, pseudonymous and without any limits.

We still follow we still vote and we will keep doing that. It doesn’t mean bitcoin failed or Satoshi’ vision failed. It’s just part of it with complex stage.

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Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

~snip~
Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

In some countries, you do not have to pay tax when you sell Bitcoin for fiat (several countries in the EU) if you meet the condition that the sale is made 1 or 2 years after the investment. It sounds too good to be true, but for now, some are luckier than others.

I think that even Satoshi was aware that the authorities will not just give up their share of the pie in a world where everything and everyone is taxed. Likewise, this anonymity is not something you should take for granted, because if the blockchain is public, what kind of anonymity are we talking about at a time when spy techniques are so powerful that they can detect almost anything they want?

I wouldn't say that Satoshi's dream failed, on the contrary, it came true and more than what he could have dreamed of. Little by little, Bitcoin is becoming a part of society in one way or another, and things that were unimaginable in the years after Bitcoin came to life are now quite normal.

Outhue

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Quote from: Edwardard on December 09, 2022, 06:52:15 AM

Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

If truly we are all here to share crypto experiences

+ help newcomers enter the space by making informative posts so that the community and p2p network builds more stronger and powerful in the future 😁

Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings.

There are tax-free(or very low tax) and crypto friendly countries in the world like El Salvador, Dubai, etc. You never thought why those rich crypto youtubers mostly shoot from Dubai? xD

Well I am not from Dubai and I am not even financially buoyant to leave my country and travel down to Dubai.

El Salvador support crypto 100% so yes the tax can't be that strong over there, compare with U.S for example, are you from the USA? The tax payment on crypto is higher and so is some countries too.

South Park

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Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

If truly we are all here to share crypto experiences then this is another one, I could be the one lacking the knowledge but I believe creating this topic will open my eye to better understanding.

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

Anyone would have seen the regulations coming, as soon as this market became big enough we knew governments will begin to try to impose their rules to bitcoin, but bitcoin is decentralized, you can still do the same things you could do with it in the early days and be relatively anonymous while doing so, it is just that right now this requires a little bit more of effort on your part, but it still can be done and there are many people which are doing precisely that.

AicecreaME

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Taxation is normal, unlucky you if your country put too much tax in everything. It helps a lot in the economy, sadly if you have a corrupt government, saying taxes will be spent on developing your country is just a joke. But taxation doesn't failed any of what you have mentioned. Bitcoin is very successful since it was released on the market, imagine it's price reached up to $68,000 is already a solid proof that Bitcoin proved us that it is way more powerful than the fiat.

Semar Mesem

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Satoshi, of course, didn't think that the development of bitcoin was like it is today, the market cap was very large and made many people rich people, bitcoin became the pioneer of many other projects so that it made job opportunities even better, another opportunity is to provide opportunities for anyone to profit by investing or daily trading.

vv181

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Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

Bitcoin is not built for tax evasion and tax evasion is even already existed way before Bitcoin's inception. So I don't agree that bitcoin is mainly built with that in mind. Another thing worth to note that it is not even anonymous, instead, pseudonymous. So you should really learn more about the aspect of bitcoin since I believe the premises you currently have which are people being taxed, does not actually on point of what bitcoin could give.

Try starting to comprehend what the Bitcoin Whitepaper shows.

TheUltraElite

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Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

Did satoshi tell that paying taxes is wrong or that bitcoin would stop its users from having to pay taxes? No.

You live in a country ruled by some politicians running a government, not in your own la la land. Being a citizen you have to pay taxes whatever be your mode of payment. Now in the past people have attempted to use bitcoin to evade taxes but they have been caught and punished for the same too.

Again like others have said, there are tax-free countries, so you can move there and get your citizenship over there.

IMO Satoshi's dream has realized as it needed it, people are using bitcoin for daily expenses and its popularity is gradually growing. What else can you ask for?

Solosanz

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If you live in tax free country, your question aren't relevant.

But let's say if you're live in a country where Bitcoin get taxed, you're actually have a "choice" to not pay tax. But there's a way to pay your Bitcoin tax without write the source is come from Bitcoin, you can write it's from your freelance or extra job. So you don't need to think you're a criminal or bad person since you're not paying tax. Actually Satoshi never say if we pay tax from Bitcoin profit, it will ruin his purpose. Bitcoin is created as pseudonymous, not anonymous.

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This is dependent of the country you are living, for instance my country doesn't pay tax for bitcoin holding and government do not have control over wallets but in other ways round, government could only demand for tax on a channels which they have access to maybe some exchange or centralized wallet where government have control over. So his dream came true.

Fortify

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Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

If truly we are all here to share crypto experiences then this is another one, I could be the one lacking the knowledge but I believe creating this topic will open my eye to better understanding.

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

You seem to assign your thoughts to what Satoshi wanted to achieve, the two are not the same - don't try to speak for them. In terms of technology - introducing the transparent ledger called the blockchain and having it used by millions around the world while being supported by a massive decentralized network of servers, it has been hugely successful. It is very rare that we see such technological advances which due to their somewhat ingenious simplicity are able to peculate. Bitcoin, while it has lost a bit of value recently, is still an exceptional means to transfer large sums of money around without the need for any sort of traditional banking infrastructure and gives people a lot of freedom in that sense.

Sir Legend

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Quote from: noorman0 on December 10, 2022, 02:34:51 AM

Whether you decide to pay taxes or not, bitcoin remains technically decentralized. It is simply a matter of responsibility whether you are obedient enough and a good citizen to report wealth value growth. After all, by default no one will know everyone's bitcoin address. Generally, more tax is charged on government regulated services.

There are many accusations that bitcoin is used to hide money or launder money so that it is banned in many countries, and in countries that legalize cryptocurrencies the pressure is on exchanges to pay taxes so that it becomes income for the country. bitcoin is indeed different from Satoshi's dream because currently bitcoin is too broad in many ways.

noorman0

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Whether you decide to pay taxes or not, bitcoin remains technically decentralized. It is simply a matter of responsibility whether you are obedient enough and a good citizen to report wealth value growth. After all, by default no one will know everyone's bitcoin address. Generally, more tax is charged on government regulated services.

Wong Goblog

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I'm sure Satoshi's dream is never like now, he used to dream of only presenting other concepts in terms of transactions, and after now many Bitcoin users save in the hope of getting a big profit, of course, it is not liked.

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Taxes are not the problem, it is not taxes that destroy Satoshi's dream, but centralization. Because in my opinion, Satoshi's goal was not to avoid taxes, but to avoid centralization and control by governments.

If our ultimate goal is the mass adoption of Bitcoin by all governments then of course there will be taxes, because no country can survive without taxes.

If taxes were to be completely abolished, how would the government spend on public services and infrastructure? I don't think that was Satoshi's goal.

Satoshi's dream was to build a decentralized financial system that eliminates the corrupt banking system based on control and centralization, but this does not mean at all the abolition of taxes because they are very necessary for the survival of any country.

Carrying out all financial transactions and transfers out of the eyes of the state will lead to the state losing an important part of the taxes on which the state relies in its economy, so in my opinion, no financial system that does not take this into account will succeed.

But in the case of Bitcoin, the solution could be to replace taxes with transfer fees in a decentralized manner.

Darker45

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I'm afraid it wasn't Satoshi's dream for people to get away with taxes. The freedom that Satoshi envisioned is the freedom from third parties like the banks, the freedom from being subjected to the unfair rules of fiat system, the freedom from those powerful few who abuse the trust that people give them as far as money is concerned. It wasn't absolute freedom.

I think Bitcoin is not designed to be a tool to shirk one's responsibility to the state, although one could make use of it somehow. It isn't specifically designed to be anonymous, either, although a certain amount of effort could also provide you a sufficient amount of privacy.

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Under normal circumstances, it is not possible for a decentralized asset to be subject to taxation. At this point, we are still preparing the ground for such an issue by continuing to trade on centralized exchanges. The problem here is not Bitcoin or the system. The problem here is our behavior. Satoshi did its part by setting up the system in a near-perfect manner. I hope we don't need a dictator to change our behavior and we adapt to use the system for its intended purpose.

In addition, concepts such as state and tax are less valuable than the concept of financial freedom. Any sane government that can see this truth will increase freedoms in this regard over time. Regulations such as acceptable tax rates or zero tax are not far off issues in my opinion.

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Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

If truly we are all here to share crypto experiences then this is another one, I could be the one lacking the knowledge but I believe creating this topic will open my eye to better understanding.

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

This is the power of the government and we can't resist it. We should be hoping for the government not to concentrate more on the Crypto spheres because this might affect the dream and plans of Satoshi Nakamoto. If the government eventually take over the affairs the crypto world then this will have some effect in how anonymous we can be when transacting cryptocurrency.

The crypto market is still growing and we hope that soon everything would will be balance and the rate of rug pull project will reduce if the government can come in a little way with less strict rules.

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Quote from: Outhue on December 09, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

If truly we are all here to share crypto experiences then this is another one, I could be the one lacking the knowledge but I believe creating this topic will open my eye to better understanding.

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

Satoshi didn't failed bitcoin was use already globally for p2p transaction and it continuously booming. Maybe the idea about being anonymous came out when bitcoin has not been notice yet globally and they used this to cover up their transaction especially online. But we need to understand that it also need government participation since legalization also on investors protection is needed for continuous spread on this technology.

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