Here is the Seizure Warrant | Bitcointalksearch.org

abbyd

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Quote from: repentance on May 17, 2013, 06:20:03 PM

Quote from: abbyd on May 17, 2013, 03:51:52 AM

Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money! Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The MSB violations have nothing to do with them dealing in Bitcoin or with BTC being money. It's what they're doing with USD which requires them to be registered as a MSB. The FinCEN guidance would appear to bring services transmitting BTC only under regulatory capture, but that's not the regulation which is being used in this instance. No "new" regulation is being used to justify the MSB offence.

IANAL, but I think no - http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/definitions/msb.html
Before this regulatory change, (according to some bean-counters) bitcoin exchanges were "selling stuff", not "transferring money", now they are "exchanging currency".

Several of the wimpier exchanges folded right when the change happened.
http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/fincen-regulations-choking-bitcoin-entrepreneurs-1058606-1.html?zkPrintable=1&nopagination=1

threeip

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Quote from: bozak on May 16, 2013, 04:00:16 PM

Agreed that the recent clarification should have prompted Gox to register. However, I can't find any info about any of the exchanges registering (CampBx, Coinbase, Tradehill, Coinlab, Coinsetter). Has anyone found any evidence that any of the exchanges has registered?

Coinbase is registered (22nd April 13)
Coinlab is registered (10th April 13)
Couldn't find records for the others.

Quote

MSB Registration Number: 31000024917794
Registration Type: Initial Registration, Corrected Report
Legal Name: CoinLab, Inc
States of MSB Activities:
Washington

Quote

MSB Registration Number: 31000025767705
Registration Type: Initial Registration
Legal Name: Coinbase, Inc.
States of MSB Activities:
Alabama, Alaska, American Samoa, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District Of Columbia,
Federated States Of Micronesia, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas,
Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Marshall Islands, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri,
Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Northern Mariana Islands,
Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Palau, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee,
Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virgin Islands, US, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming

The-Real-Link

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Quote from: repentance on May 17, 2013, 07:08:22 PM

Quote from: The-Real-Link on May 17, 2013, 06:57:55 PM

Called Dwolla and they couldn't tell me more than that they'd learned about coins a lot this week (probably because half of Gox's account holders are calling them). Just seems like it's fine to go pick a different exchange and be good to go.

Dwolla brought in special conditions for Bitcoin related businesses last year. One reason why MtGox limited the amount of transfers going through Dwolla at any one time was fear that Dwolla itself would suddenly freeze their account.

Dwolla will likely review their policy regarding servicing Bitcoin related businesses again now.

We don't know how the seizure of the Wells Fargo account is going to affect MtGox operations. It may have held a small amount of user funds or it could have held a large amount of user funds.

Typed up a paragraph with money questions but it didn't sound right ... yeah I hear ya. I do think Dwolla will reevaluate how they handle exchanges or any BTC business though, as you said.

repentance

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Quote from: The-Real-Link on May 17, 2013, 06:57:55 PM

Called Dwolla and they couldn't tell me more than that they'd learned about coins a lot this week (probably because half of Gox's account holders are calling them). Just seems like it's fine to go pick a different exchange and be good to go.

Dwolla brought in special conditions for Bitcoin related businesses last year. One reason why MtGox limited the amount of transfers going through Dwolla at any one time was fear that Dwolla itself would suddenly freeze their account.

Dwolla will likely review their policy regarding servicing Bitcoin related businesses again now.

We don't know how the seizure of the Wells Fargo account is going to affect MtGox operations. It may have held a small amount of user funds or it could have held a large amount of user funds.

The-Real-Link

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Thank you for posting that warrant summary. Not sure how easily that was found but it does outlay all the questions I had for Dwolla earlier.

Basically to sum up, it appears Karpeles* lied on opening the account as being used for transferring money and being a money type of business. The field agent tried testing it enough via Dwolla in a few months to connect the dots, then have a judge's order to seize the account.

Called Dwolla and they couldn't tell me more than that they'd learned about coins a lot this week (probably because half of Gox's account holders are calling them). Just seems like it's fine to go pick a different exchange and be good to go.

I wouldn't be surprised if this, coupled with the Coinlab suit, severely impairs or closes Gox.

repentance

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Quote from: abbyd on May 17, 2013, 03:51:52 AM

Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money! Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The MSB violations have nothing to do with them dealing in Bitcoin or with BTC being money. It's what they're doing with USD which requires them to be registered as a MSB. The FinCEN guidance would appear to bring services transmitting BTC only under regulatory capture, but that's not the regulation which is being used in this instance. No "new" regulation is being used to justify the MSB offence.

abbyd

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Quote from: crumbcake on May 17, 2013, 07:58:03 AM

Quote from: abbyd on May 17, 2013, 03:51:52 AM

Quote from: CompNsci on May 15, 2013, 02:37:16 PM

The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.

Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money! Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The proposed DHS budget for 2014 is 35.5 billion dollars, and the department is eager to show some bang for the buck. Protecting us from fake bombs that DHS itself provides to the ghetto-dwelling wannabe terrorists has grown a bit ho-hum, and DHS has shown itself incapable of protecting us from real bomb threats (Boston marathon).
I can't think of a better way to pad DHS's portfolio of epic wins than this catchy headline:
DHS Brings Shadownet Cash Coining Criminals to Justice
I'm betting this is a just a marketing test. Unless people respond with "WTF," more news at 7.

That's it! Betsofbitcoin:

"In 2013, bitcoin will be directly linked to 'financing terrorism' in the US mainstream media."

And I wonder who will be behind it... it's all about job security:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2013/05/01/f-q-a-trevor-aaronson.html

benjamindees

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Quote from: mcgravier on May 15, 2013, 02:33:53 PM

Bullshit.

It is impossible to transmit every single order by Mutum Sigillum to Mtgox in Japan on behalf of their clients, because wire costs would kill the buisness. The two companies were merly reducing funds imbalance from time to time - it cannot be called transmitting money on behalf of their clients.

But this isn't really a defense. That's what all money transmitters do. It's the reason that money transmitters are regulated.

crumbcake

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Quote from: abbyd on May 17, 2013, 03:51:52 AM

Quote from: CompNsci on May 15, 2013, 02:37:16 PM

The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.

Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money! Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The proposed DHS budget for 2014 is 35.5 billion dollars, and the department is eager to show some bang for the buck. Protecting us from fake bombs that DHS itself provides to the ghetto-dwelling wannabe terrorists has grown a bit ho-hum, and DHS has shown itself incapable of protecting us from real bomb threats (Boston marathon).
I can't think of a better way to pad DHS's portfolio of epic wins than this catchy headline:
DHS Brings Shadownet Cash Coining Criminals to Justice
I'm betting this is a just a marketing test. Unless people respond with "WTF," more news at 7.

abbyd

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Activity: 159

Merit: 100

Quote from: CompNsci on May 15, 2013, 02:37:16 PM

The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.

Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money! Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

Darktongue

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Frankly gox has to much control over bitcoin prices. In a sence it's what makes the system a fail. The idea that gox shits the bed and crypto falls makes it a central base of operation. Something I thought crypto sought not to be. Further the scary fact here is the access the fed was granted to see all them dollars going out to poor sons of bitches who wher under the impression that privacy was being held. How deep will this eagles dick bury into the asshole of this community is my question.

phelix

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MtGox removed the info about the Dwolla account seizure from their website... hmmm.

Namealreadyexists

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Quote from: k3t3r on May 15, 2013, 03:09:35 PM

seal team 7 have captured Mark Karpeles he will be given a traditional muslim burial at sea. thats all folks.

Tyrannosaurus, mtgoxaurus, who cares, as long as I can fill up my gas tank with what's left of them.

jamesgarfield

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FBI Is trying to bring down Bitcoin, after all, its their job they are hired to protect the federal monetary system.

CasinoBit

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"Honorable"

jamesgarfield

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Quote from: coastermonger on May 15, 2013, 01:18:04 PM

There are two sad realities here.

1) I have absolutely zero confidence in the MtGox legal defense team

2) If MtGox goes down, it will be a loooong time before bitcoin can recover

Hopefully someone can provide some relief

I disagree, if MTGOX is down I think BTC will be free from there grip and new exchanges will pop up everywhere, increasing Bitcoins price. Just my opinion

crumbcake

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Quote from: bozak on May 16, 2013, 04:00:16 PM

Quote from: K and A Traders on May 16, 2013, 03:55:18 PM

Quote from: BlueNote on May 16, 2013, 03:21:49 PM

Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.

It's understandable that people are upset. However, there are rules. Not only are there rules, but the rules are fairly clear. Not only are they fairly clear, they were further clarified a couple months ago.

There is no excuse for MtGox to not have registered with Fincen.

Agreed that the recent clarification should have prompted Gox to register. However, I can't find any info about any of the exchanges registering (CampBx, Coinbase, Tradehill, Coinlab, Coinsetter). Has anyone found any evidence that any of the exchanges has registered?

Aren't they relatively small compared to Mt.Gox? Seems only reasonable that the big kids get served first.

bozak

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Quote from: K and A Traders on May 16, 2013, 03:55:18 PM

Quote from: BlueNote on May 16, 2013, 03:21:49 PM

Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.

It's understandable that people are upset. However, there are rules. Not only are there rules, but the rules are fairly clear. Not only are they fairly clear, they were further clarified a couple months ago.

There is no excuse for MtGox to not have registered with Fincen.

Agreed that the recent clarification should have prompted Gox to register. However, I can't find any info about any of the exchanges registering (CampBx, Coinbase, Tradehill, Coinlab, Coinsetter). Has anyone found any evidence that any of the exchanges has registered?

K and A Traders

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Quote from: BlueNote on May 16, 2013, 03:21:49 PM

Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.

It's understandable that people are upset. However, there are rules. Not only are there rules, but the rules are fairly clear. Not only are they fairly clear, they were further clarified a couple months ago.

There is no excuse for MtGox to not have registered with Fincen.

BlueNote

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Quote from: repentance on May 16, 2013, 07:23:38 AM

Quote from: TheFootMan on May 15, 2013, 02:54:17 PM

A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.

When Dwolla sends funds from a customer account to MtGox at the customer's request, it's without question acting as a money transmitter. It's absurd to then claim that MtGox is not transmitting money when it transfers customer funds to the customer's Dwolla account at the customer's request.

Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.

Topic: Here is the Seizure Warrant (Read 8076 times)