Topic: Hmm... is it time to crash BTC exchange rates yet? - page 3. (Read 8836 times)

I speculate its going to shoot up again to new heights before another painful crash way to the bottom 

That is the problem when bitcoin is backed by fiat which it should not be the case as it's value will be determined by a debt ridden fiat currency.


Control as in private banking taking control of issuing currency via loans. In bitcoins, the control is passed on to those who produce the hashing power. I already took a surprise at how money is made (via debt, loans and added interest) and I would not be surprised if bitcoins would be headed that way as exchanges pop up.

Well, I have to warn you, with BTC as a currency you will get to keep all of those things (except for the debt part).



Could you please define what you mean by control?
I may have another surprise for you when it comes to bitcoin.

If you want to know my stance on fiat money, I am against it. I would like to live in a world where central banks have no power to control currency flows and impose tax levies on its people on the currency issued via loans and debt. This is the reason why I am trying to convince people to use bitcoins because I have faith in a crypto-currency that is controlled by the people and not the few elites. I will mention several themes which I believe it to be connected with the rise of bitcoins.

In terms of slavery, I do not equate work with slavery and I will define the aforementioned as "wage slavery" and not "work slavery" - both are different in context and I am looking at the former. The wage slavers would be required to do any job to make ends meet whilst someone who is trained and works in a profession HE LIKES, would earn enough to live comfortably. My definition of wage slavery thus is someone who can not elect his chosen job and engages in a routine, monotonous work. This is what you refer to coercion vs freedom to contract. If I wanted to work in my profession, it would be the latter, other wise, it would be the former.

In our working life, people are already participating in a hierarchy economy where CEO's earn more than 600% of salary in comparison with other peers since the 80's. This is the grossest example of hoarding I have seen- 1% vs the 99%. Look at how Carlos Slim got his wealth from the telecommunications industry and how Indian entrepreneurs are hoarding $3 billion worth in profit over night. If you examine how an average person spends his day, it would be 8 hours working, 8 hours sleeping and 8 hours playing (1/3 of a 24 hour period for each activity). In lower classes, there is a disparity in these figures where people are not able to spend more play time than work time or even sleep.

You state Gresham's law - "Bad money in circulation drives good money into hoards". Silver is an example of a face value metal that has risen in value in comparison to its face value due to its applications in industry and its limited supply. With Bitcoins, because of it's market volatility, people desire to make a profit because there is distrust with the fiat currency as it is constantly devalued and prefer to use bitcoins as a safe haven investment (like gold or silver). The people from PIIGS have been rumoured to sell euros and instead buy bitcoins because of what is happening in the "euro rescue package bubble " - compare this with the real estate bubble that caused Lehman brothers to crash in 2008.

To reverse this behaviour, the value of bitcoins would either have to be devalued, lose confidence, or have an unlimited supply of coins in circulation to make people spend.

You are engaging in some interesting rhetoric and it is difficult to see if you are agreeing or not.

If you equate work with slavery (which I don't, the difference is coercion vs freedom to contract) and the hours of your life are the currency of the land, then everyone would be participating in a slave economy.  Take a look at what policy goals you are looking to achieve with the currency in play.  The same incentives for hoarding exist whether you pay someone in gold or in hours.  Money in its simplest form is the means used to convince someone to do something that they would not do for free.
Bad money in circulation drives good money into hoards.

 

Seems like the opposite of hoarding to me, seems like you are participating in the bitcoin economy.

So I think hoarding and speculating is ok for BTC.... until the speculators get spooked. The problem is that they could artificially inflate the price and then suddenly decide to sell when the price drops a little. This would increase supply and cause the price to further lower and cause a chain reaction (Like when the price dropped from 250 to 100?). The problem isn't that people are quick to buy its that the same people are quick to sell.

So what is your point?

The idea between a fiat and a community currency (if you bothered to watch the documentary it discusses about the use of River hours named after the community it is used in) is that fiat money is itself limited by the supply that is being produced and thus would encourage hoarding. Time is a currency that anyone can give to the community (obviously within the life expectancy of the person) and there is no reason to hoard this type of currency as it is limitless. Therefore, people within the community contribute to their local economy when there is a need which brings to the opposite end which are wage slaves which is what you see nowadays people working to make ends meet.

Which do you prefer? Being a slave your entire life or work only when you need to?

Time is limitless only if you are immortal.

Spend all of my BTC on drugs, cam-girls, and satoshi dice?
...OR...
Save my BTC for 10 years and build a large company and/or build an apartment complex(or 2).

Decisions, decisions...

You might be right. Or perhaps there is the concept of yin-yang at play here? Either way, it's important that the miners look beyond the debit card use of bitcoin. Let's put it this way, does a debit card or a business that issues it (Mt.Gox et al.) gets to make a profit? (An please, remember, everything I have been saying so far is to be interpreted strictly as hints; it's up to each individual to do their own hacking around the hints.)



For those who are not yet paralyzed by the GOLD 2.0 bug, spend some time contemplating about the above two lines (thanks Stephen for summarizing it so neatly), then look at 1) the market cap, 2) the average volume of bitcoins being traded at Mt.Gox et al., 3) the average bitcoins sent per hour, and finally, look at 4) the total number of mined bitcoins. And if you are among the lucky few bitcoin miners who suddenly get the aha moment from this little brainstorming exercise, please take advantage of the receding bid orders.

I am not in favour of central bank policies nor support any form of centralised monetary issuer as the beneficiaries are the elite few. Just to be clear that as a miner like anyone else who is a bitcoin user:

1) I am one of many btc miners - no centralization here, its distributed, hence everyone gets an equal share of the pie!
2) Every person has the right to earn the bitcoins that are rightfully theirs  just as they have spent their own time and money on equipment.
3) Every person have the right to either SPEND or SAVE their bitcoins and see fit how to recoup losses on equipment purchased.


Where have I said that I am in favour of centralised banking?

Pretty much all types of currencies have that phenomena (as a store of value function)... I'm just trying to point out that there are two types of hoarding: "hoarding by money users" and "hoarding by central banks" (the issuers of that money). The former serves as a confirmation that a store of value function is present and working well within a currency, the latter destroys all three functions of money. Now, you seem to be in favor of the latter... What gives?

We're obviously both blindfolded, touching an elephant and describing entirely different animals.

If you want to describe the Bitcoin ledger as having rows and each row represents a unit of value, then Bitcoin has 2,100,000,000,000,000 "rows" to work with.    (21M BTC, and 1 BTC = 100,000,000 rows (each equal to 1 Satoshi).

Most transactions cover millions of "rows" at a time.  (e.g., a 0.123 BTC payment covers 12.300,000 "rows").

So even if 99.9% of those rows are locked up with no activity, there are plenty of rows remaining with which commerce can occur through  (though yes, that would occur at a higher exchange rate due to supply being restricted to 0.1% of the coins issued).


Panic?  

People understand supply and demand.   As the price rises, supply increases from those who previously were hoarding and then have attained the purchasing power that they were targeting.   At the same time demand by others decreases as plans to acquire coins at the higher exchange rate due to sticker shock.

Bitcoin is not the first commodity or form of money with a limited supply.

So, be bold and describe to us how this panic you fear will emerge.

It is limitless and unlimitless at the same time. Yes there can be only 22M coins, however you can split them in pieces as small as you want. It's not unthinkable that in the future people will pay with 0,00000001 for example.

Listen, I do not represent a collective of mining unions and I am not here to entertain you. If you cannot read a computer science paper, that isn't my problem mate. Your question has already been answered by myself and others; finite currencies will always have a hoarding phenomena (I know you can't be arsed to look into the link I gave you) and transaction fees is not the same as a block reward!

Look to "incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees" as a clue.

What made you think that I'm not aware of 21MM supply of bitcoins?

I know, it is unfair to ask everyone to read between the lines.

But I need the GOLD 2.0 mania to last a little longer.

You are wrong, it is limited and finite by issuing 21 million coins in its lifetime.


http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Halving of rewards occurs every 210,000 blocks being solved, see geometric equation:
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/161/how-many-bitcoins-will-there-eventually-be

But it is limitless!... Unfortunately, at this point, most would have to read between the lines in order to confirm for themselves the existence of that hidden gem, as I am still in the very early stages of negotiations with the miners cartel (a.k.a. the central banks of bitcoin economy). If the terms we agree on are favorable to both consumers and merchants, the bitcoin debit card business will continue as usual, unless of course it becomes a hindrance, once again.

If anyone wants to form a foundation around this — one that would speak on behalf of bitcoin consumers and businesses — please send me a PM. And if you are a writer, please state so in advance and let me know your rates in BTC (just say how much you would like to get per "published" article vs. blog post). The sooner we can persuade the miners that there's more to bitcoin than for it to be used as a debit card, the sooner we can all enjoy using BTC as money.

Let's face it, if you were a "non speculative" bitcoin miner, would you entrust your most prized possession in the hands of those who will treat it as nothing more but yet another GOLD 2.0 fix (sorry for the drugs analogy, couldn't resist)? So, doing away with the GOLD 2.0 mania throughout the bitcoin community (through education on the inner workings of BTC currency) is the first step to getting the miners to start putting into circulation more batches of bitcoins.

Interesting.