How does ancap deal with an oil spill?

Explodicle

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 02:01:48 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 12:53:57 PM

There's a speech the author of The Dominant Animal gives. I haven't listened to it yet, (but for the first few minutes), but I'm willing to bet it's relevant. Isn't it odd that after he is introduced, he almost immediately uses the phrase "How the world works", and goes on to say the importance of understanding that.

Anyway, here's the speech: http://longnow.org/seminars/02008/jun/27/dominant-animal-human-evolution-and-environment/

I have now had a chance to listen to the first hour of the speech. He really gives a good synopsis of the issues. The book will then give you detail on each of those things, with facts, examples, data, etc.

He does address the importance of understanding and knowledge, and he does address the main question Explodicle is asking. Listen to the speech.

Oh OK, I'll just watch that first. I was having trouble finding a PDF of The Dominant Animal, and the Mao quote on page 140 made me not want to pay for it. Tongue

Maybe the speech will change my mind.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 12:53:57 PM

There's a speech the author of The Dominant Animal gives. I haven't listened to it yet, (but for the first few minutes), but I'm willing to bet it's relevant. Isn't it odd that after he is introduced, he almost immediately uses the phrase "How the world works", and goes on to say the importance of understanding that.

Anyway, here's the speech: http://longnow.org/seminars/02008/jun/27/dominant-animal-human-evolution-and-environment/

I have now had a chance to listen to the first hour of the speech. He really gives a good synopsis of the issues. The book will then give you detail on each of those things, with facts, examples, data, etc.

He does address the importance of understanding and knowledge, and he does address the main question Explodicle is asking. Listen to the speech.

CoinDiver

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 11:00:39 AM

It's actually you claiming ten minutes spent reading a document provides all the answers.

Read it, then we'll talk.

FirstAscent

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There's a speech the author of The Dominant Animal gives. I haven't listened to it yet, (but for the first few minutes), but I'm willing to bet it's relevant. Isn't it odd that after he is introduced, he almost immediately uses the phrase "How the world works", and goes on to say the importance of understanding that.

Anyway, here's the speech: http://longnow.org/seminars/02008/jun/27/dominant-animal-human-evolution-and-environment/

FirstAscent

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Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 12:21:52 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 11:55:07 AM

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 11:49:20 AM

Awesome. Post whichever source best answers my question.

There you go: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1007405

That's several sources. Since I'm assuming you aren't just hiding behind a huge reading list to discourage anyone from questioning you, which on in particular best answers the following question?

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 10:50:31 AM

How do you suggest we ensure that the most informed people are in a position to set policy? You don't support the status quo, you don't support AnCap, so I really want to hear your idea.

Page numbers would be helpful too.

The first book on the list. Pages 140 - 435. ( www.amazon.com/The-Dominant-Animal-Evolution-Environment/dp/1597260975/ )

But I think you would understand the information in that book better if you read the second book on the list as well.

EDIT: I meant the third book as a way to augment the first book. But you should probably read the second book as well.

Explodicle

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 11:55:07 AM

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 11:49:20 AM

Awesome. Post whichever source best answers my question.

There you go: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1007405

That's several sources. Since I'm assuming you aren't just hiding behind a huge reading list to discourage anyone from questioning you, which on in particular best answers the following question?

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 10:50:31 AM

How do you suggest we ensure that the most informed people are in a position to set policy? You don't support the status quo, you don't support AnCap, so I really want to hear your idea.

Page numbers would be helpful too.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 11:49:20 AM

Awesome. Post whichever source best answers my question.

There you go: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1007405

Explodicle

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 11:35:29 AM

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 11:27:19 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 11:03:13 AM

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 10:50:31 AM

So how? How do you suggest we ensure that the most informed people are in a position to set policy? You don't support the status quo, you don't support AnCap, so I really want to hear your idea.

Let's start by having you (and anyone you know) getting informed. How does that sound? Is that too much? Obviously it doesn't go against what I have been saying. Tell me when you're ready, and I'll recommend sources for you to gain knowledge of things you don't know. From there, you can make further decisions on your position regarding AnCap.

Ok, then I'm ready. Post a source to this thread that explains your answer to the question I just asked. I will expect you to actually defend the position taken by this source.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Einstein

I didn't provide an answer to your question. I suggested that you (that means you - not someone else) should gain more knowledge before promoting AnCap.

No shit.

Quote

However, the material which I might suggest you read does offer suggestions regarding your question, but more to the point, it will increase your knowledge to the point that it would probably cause you to seriously challenge your ideals.

Awesome. Post whichever source best answers my question.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 11:27:19 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 11:03:13 AM

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 10:50:31 AM

So how? How do you suggest we ensure that the most informed people are in a position to set policy? You don't support the status quo, you don't support AnCap, so I really want to hear your idea.

Let's start by having you (and anyone you know) getting informed. How does that sound? Is that too much? Obviously it doesn't go against what I have been saying. Tell me when you're ready, and I'll recommend sources for you to gain knowledge of things you don't know. From there, you can make further decisions on your position regarding AnCap.

Ok, then I'm ready. Post a source to this thread that explains your answer to the question I just asked. I will expect you to actually defend the position taken by this source.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Einstein

I didn't provide an answer to your question. I suggested that you (that means you - not someone else) should gain more knowledge before promoting AnCap. However, the material which I might suggest you read does offer suggestions regarding your question, but more to the point, it will increase your knowledge to the point that it would probably cause you to seriously challenge your ideals.

Explodicle

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 11:03:13 AM

Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 10:50:31 AM

So how? How do you suggest we ensure that the most informed people are in a position to set policy? You don't support the status quo, you don't support AnCap, so I really want to hear your idea.

Let's start by having you (and anyone you know) getting informed. How does that sound? Is that too much? Obviously it doesn't go against what I have been saying. Tell me when you're ready, and I'll recommend sources for you to gain knowledge of things you don't know. From there, you can make further decisions on your position regarding AnCap.

Ok, then I'm ready. Post a source to this thread that explains your answer to the question I just asked. I will expect you to actually defend the position taken by this source.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Einstein

FirstAscent

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Quote from: Explodicle on July 26, 2012, 10:50:31 AM

So how? How do you suggest we ensure that the most informed people are in a position to set policy? You don't support the status quo, you don't support AnCap, so I really want to hear your idea.

Let's start by having you (and anyone you know) getting informed. How does that sound? Is that too much? Obviously it doesn't go against what I have been saying. Tell me when you're ready, and I'll recommend sources for you to gain knowledge of things you don't know. From there, you can make further decisions on your position regarding AnCap.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: CoinDiver on July 26, 2012, 09:49:26 AM

Regardless, I understand where you are coming from. I too once believed there was an answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. Some day you may realize Government causes more trouble than it will ever solve. When you do, you will stop trying to figure out how one can enforce prosperity.

It's actually you claiming ten minutes spent reading a document provides all the answers.

Explodicle

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(This post assumes you haven't clicked my ignore button, and thus agree to actually address what I'm saying instead of condescendingly suggesting another year of study.)

So back on topic... first you say the status quo doesn't stop me from driving electric cars. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and explained why it does. Then you say oh I don't support the status quo,

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 20, 2012, 11:21:22 AM

I personally want intelligence and knowledge coupled with long term thinking.

So how? How do you suggest we ensure that the most informed people are in a position to set policy? You don't support the status quo, you don't support AnCap, so I really want to hear your idea.

nevafuse

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Quote from: grantbdev on July 18, 2012, 01:19:14 PM

What happens? Who pays to clean up? Who pays reparations to all of the people affected (e.g. fishermen who just lost their jobs)? Would their be any concern for all of the life destroyed?

Why wouldn't it be in the oil company's best interest to cap the well? If I'm losing money every day because of it, I'm going to repair it ASAP so I can continue making money off of it. Even if my company is too broke, I'd sell it to another company for a price that would make it worth salvaging. An oil spill is also bad press. I don't want people to stop using my product because I've ruined their beaches. There are a lot of incentives for the company to fix it as soon as possible.

Assuming the explosion makes it unsalvageable and I don't care about my reputation because my company is broke or I'm in a remote area, then there is a higher likelihood the problem would not be fixed. But the citizens of the beaches that are affected could come together and donate money to an operation to try & cap the well or filter the water coming into the beach. Or companies could buy the beaches, filter the water, and charge a fee to use it. I believe natural oil spills occur as well where there is no one to blame & the same problems would arise.

CoinDiver

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 26, 2012, 02:12:58 AM

It's mighty pompous of me to suggest that knowledge is better than ignorance? It's mighty pompous of me to think that a ten minute read of a document isn't enough to address so many of the complex issues involving resource depletion, exploitation and collateral destruction that we see in the world today? Okay.

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Your arrogance is astounding.

Regardless, I understand where you are coming from. I too once believed there was an answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. Some day you may realize Government causes more trouble than it will ever solve. When you do, you will stop trying to figure out how one can enforce prosperity.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: CoinDiver on July 20, 2012, 03:51:54 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 20, 2012, 12:04:34 PM

...mind filled with more knowledge than it currently stores, you can reevaluate the notion of your political beliefs.

What could it hurt? Stop insisting your political ideology is golden, and instead, just study the depth of the world's problems. Who knows what you'll discover?

You look like a complete idiot arguing "knowledge" and "beliefs" with an ancap. You pretend you can know enough to predict outcomes. It's mighty pompous of you. You want someone to spend a year, when you wont take 10 minutes to read the most profound speech on economics ever given. Yeah, good luck with that.

It's mighty pompous of me to suggest that knowledge is better than ignorance? It's mighty pompous of me to think that a ten minute read of a document isn't enough to address so many of the complex issues involving resource depletion, exploitation and collateral destruction that we see in the world today? Okay.

Stardust

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Quote from: grantbdev on July 19, 2012, 01:32:00 AM

The work in particular that I was referencing was a short pamphlet called Agrarian Justice (1797), which supported property taxes funding a universal basic income.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrarian_Justice

The work is based on the contention that in the state of nature, "the earth, in its natural uncultivated state... was the common property of the human race"; the concept of private ownership arose as a necessary result of the development of agriculture, since it was impossible to distinguish the possession of improvements to the land from the possession of the land itself. Thus Paine views private property as necessary, but that the basic needs of all humanity must be provided for by those with property, who have originally taken it from the general public. This in some sense is their "payment" to non-property holders for the right to hold private property.

You can probably find a free e-book of it (and his more popular works) but I really like this hardcover collection: http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Paine-Collected-Writings-Pamphlets/dp/1883011035/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1342679094&sr=8-4&keywords=thomas+paine

Thanks, I'm going to read it. Though it's disappointing that he proposes property taxes. Perhaps a better solution would be to consider only man made things property, like houses, cars, factories, etc. The rest should be available to everyone. I think American Indians thought like this.

CoinDiver

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 20, 2012, 12:04:34 PM

...mind filled with more knowledge than it currently stores, you can reevaluate the notion of your political beliefs.

What could it hurt? Stop insisting your political ideology is golden, and instead, just study the depth of the world's problems. Who knows what you'll discover?

You look like a complete idiot arguing "knowledge" and "beliefs" with an ancap. You pretend you can know enough to predict outcomes. It's mighty pompous of you. You want someone to spend a year, when you wont take 10 minutes to read the most profound speech on economics ever given. Yeah, good luck with that.

Explodicle

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 20, 2012, 12:04:34 PM

Quote from: Explodicle on July 20, 2012, 11:55:47 AM

Oh ok I thought you were saying the current system prevented more oil spills than AnCap would, my mistake.

I think your mistake is putting the cart before the horse. Why don't you take a year off from slapping your favorite pet political ideology on everything you see, and just educate yourself? When you come back from your sabbatical, with a fresh and newly primed mind filled with more knowledge than it currently stores, you can reevaluate the notion of your political beliefs.

I already DID take time to reevaluate my beliefs and it led me from socialism to here. What makes you think I won't make the same mistakes again? Uneducated empty-minded idealogues like myself reach the wrong conclusions on their own, so I need environmental/political/philosophical experts like you to set me straight.

If this activity is below you, my ignore button is to the left of the page.

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 20, 2012, 12:04:34 PM

What could it hurt?

If you're right, then it wouldn't hurt anyone.
If I'm right, then a better world will come an hour later and someone will die because of my failure to act.

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: ?? on ??

It's a waste of time arguing with statist trolls. I'm just gonna ignore them from now on.

FirstAscent is the only one I haven't bludgeoned to death with sense and logic... Primarily because he's yet to nail down his position. He just whines about ours.

Topic: How does ancap deal with an oil spill? (Read 5935 times)