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Topic: How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World - page 13. (Read 8983 times)

hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 785
July 04, 2022, 11:04:13 AM
And now the scheme units are not just “money”, but ‘revolutionary money’. ‘Scarce money’. ‘Money that saves people from inflation and poverty’. ‘Money that provides freedom from the governments’. And so on. Due to the fact that Nakamoto scheme is online, and thus global, and given there are a lot of gullible and naive people around the world, the propaganda was successful.

Come.. Writing a thread on bitcointalk is not compulsory, because I just read your entire thread twice and yet still finding it very difficult to comprehend what you actually mean. It's so very sad because you are absolutely wrong on Satoshi's philosophy and yet with this, am sure you aren't ready to learn the truth, because Bitcoin has come to stay and not going anywhere, so it's better you go do more research to enlighten yourself, because this thread is pointless and you are just contradicting yourself all over from the beginning to the end.

member
Activity: 812
Merit: 13
Crypto bookmaker and casino
July 04, 2022, 07:57:16 AM
Satoshi Nakamoto brought a revolutionary digital money that is changing the world now. Many investors had made lots of money from this invention and more millionaires are still going to be made. Satoshi never fooled anyone, he just saved us from the government from running the lives of the masses. Bitcoin bring cryptocurrency and now there are many crypto projects in the market that are good for investing.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
July 04, 2022, 07:19:56 AM
I'm not the thing here. You people are literally buying numbers from an anonymous guy. Just think about it. The guy comes up with a number 21 million and then sets up an online system to sell the units of that number to people. And people fell for it. Not only that, but they take the whole thing to the level of craziness where they pay $70.000 for a unit of that guy's number. And in your mind, I am somehow the problem? I am laughing my ass off when I read your responses.

It's true. I've been buying numbers my whole life from various nameless purported people and entities, with various morals and various agendas. I've probably paid for or enslaved myself to at least 20 different governments in my short life, in return for numbers, sometimes with a semblance of effort (paper) sometimes literally just made up numbers on an account they just change the numbers in arbitrarily.

They didn't even have to go through the trouble of capping the number, it's factually unlimited, they didn't even have to provide me or themselves a way to see exactly how much numbers it is they've put out or who has them.

Last year, one such government decided to print trillions more in paper to throw around. And people lapped it up, magic numbers magically made up and we all lapped in up.

Welcome to the craziness.
No, you have been buying debt, and being paid that debt by the borrowers in the market exchanges, even if you're not aware of that, because you don't ask market participants whether they are borrowers. Numbers in those exchanges were only information about how many units of debt you have had. Economic resources, such as debt, products, services, labour, equity... are what is sold or bought on the market, not numbers. Numbers just inform market participants about the quantity of the resources. In the Nakamoto's system, you're literally buying numbers. You're buying units of a number that Nakamoto created in their imagination(21 million). That's the definition of craziness. Even giving a dollar for a unit is craziness, let alone giving $70.000.

You call it what you want. Debt, bank accounts, vaults, whatever, it's just numbers. What value those number have? 0. The only thing that is keeping any value, if any, is some supposed agreement we (the people) agreed with to our corrupt, greedy, liar governments, banks and major businesses CEOs, etc which control the polititians in each country. You seem to have no idea what you're talking about or you're just a son of one of those bastards that keep ading numbers to the pile of shitcoin we have been forced to use for ages and taking any value it may have! That's all. Numbers, meaningless numbers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE
Of course, you can call a resource whatever you want ... it's still a resource. Debt is a resource because it provides utility at debt repayment or settlement. Fiat currency is simply a numeric information about the size of debt. This information is written on banknotes or bank accounts.

On the other hand, you can call a unit of a number whatever you want ... it's still a number. Bitcoin is a unit of the number 21 million. You can call it money, asset, digital gold. It's still a unit of that number. You can split it into subunits and call it Satoshi. It's still a subunit of that number. No resources here. Nothing to utilize. Just numbers that every idiot can create in their imagination. That's why you need new suckers to join the scheme and bring the resources in.

Try to accept that Satoshi Nakamoto scammed you. They created an online scam in which they anonymously sell you units of a number that they came up in their imagination. And you naive and greedy suckers fell for that stupidity.


Debt is a good resource to create more money out of thin air and devalue all bills and coins you have in your pocket. I give you that!
I don't understand what you are trying to say (sell) when you mention the numeric information about the size of debt. It's unrelated to the fact that the numbers you're talking about are exactly the same as the ones you refer when you talk about Bitcoin. But in your mind, ones have value (whatever that means to you) and the others don't. You're inconsistent and make no sense!

The numbers of your loved shitcoin have exactly the same resources as you say about the ones in Bitcoin. Zero, null, NaN. They represent even less than what they represented before 1971. They represent shit now. They represent the most paradoxal thing in history. Trust in a bunch of corrupt and greedy people! Yet, that's what makes you comfortable!
The only consistency shown  by you is that you fail to understand the digital side of all the properties needed to "make" a sound money!

If your shitcoin was that good, why the heck are we living the times that we are living? Are you just acting stupid or are you really stupid?

What you need to accept is that fiat uses no resources, have no resources, create no resources and is only used to control the brains of the retarded, by meaningless numbers.

Check this please and make it loop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AeO-dKGBLs

On the other hand, Bitcoin uses, resources, creates a resource (the currency to be able to be traded by goods/services/etc), needs no corrupt fuckers, greedy bastards to control it and it manages itself on it's own.
You're living a huge lie and you can't even see it! How retarded can someone be?

Open your eyes and your mind, don't be silly. You seem just another puppet that is passing by this earth with no goals, drive or anything! Sad!
You're just repeating nonsense conspiracy theories about fiat money. Fiat money is simply a record of debt just like an invoice is a record of the products or services provided to a costumer. All records are created out of thin air. But recourses, like debt, products or services are not created out of thin air. Debt for example is created out of loan contracts and collaterals. Bitcoin on the other hand, is not a resource. It's a unit of Nakamoto's imaginary number (21 million) whose record is stored on blockchain. It's a simple online scam falsely presented to the public as a payment system. In a payment system resources are transferred, and the quantity of resources is expressed with numbers written on paper or digitally. In Nakamoto's scam you have numbers but not resources. That's why those who join the scam by investing their resources must wait new suckers to join otherwise they are doomed.
hero member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 681
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
July 04, 2022, 04:53:29 AM
I'm not the thing here. You people are literally buying numbers from an anonymous guy. Just think about it. The guy comes up with a number 21 million and then sets up an online system to sell the units of that number to people. And people fell for it. Not only that, but they take the whole thing to the level of craziness where they pay $70.000 for a unit of that guy's number. And in your mind, I am somehow the problem? I am laughing my ass off when I read your responses.

It's true. I've been buying numbers my whole life from various nameless purported people and entities, with various morals and various agendas. I've probably paid for or enslaved myself to at least 20 different governments in my short life, in return for numbers, sometimes with a semblance of effort (paper) sometimes literally just made up numbers on an account they just change the numbers in arbitrarily.

They didn't even have to go through the trouble of capping the number, it's factually unlimited, they didn't even have to provide me or themselves a way to see exactly how much numbers it is they've put out or who has them.

Last year, one such government decided to print trillions more in paper to throw around. And people lapped it up, magic numbers magically made up and we all lapped in up.

Welcome to the craziness.
No, you have been buying debt, and being paid that debt by the borrowers in the market exchanges, even if you're not aware of that, because you don't ask market participants whether they are borrowers. Numbers in those exchanges were only information about how many units of debt you have had. Economic resources, such as debt, products, services, labour, equity... are what is sold or bought on the market, not numbers. Numbers just inform market participants about the quantity of the resources. In the Nakamoto's system, you're literally buying numbers. You're buying units of a number that Nakamoto created in their imagination(21 million). That's the definition of craziness. Even giving a dollar for a unit is craziness, let alone giving $70.000.

You call it what you want. Debt, bank accounts, vaults, whatever, it's just numbers. What value those number have? 0. The only thing that is keeping any value, if any, is some supposed agreement we (the people) agreed with to our corrupt, greedy, liar governments, banks and major businesses CEOs, etc which control the polititians in each country. You seem to have no idea what you're talking about or you're just a son of one of those bastards that keep ading numbers to the pile of shitcoin we have been forced to use for ages and taking any value it may have! That's all. Numbers, meaningless numbers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE
Of course, you can call a resource whatever you want ... it's still a resource. Debt is a resource because it provides utility at debt repayment or settlement. Fiat currency is simply a numeric information about the size of debt. This information is written on banknotes or bank accounts.

On the other hand, you can call a unit of a number whatever you want ... it's still a number. Bitcoin is a unit of the number 21 million. You can call it money, asset, digital gold. It's still a unit of that number. You can split it into subunits and call it Satoshi. It's still a subunit of that number. No resources here. Nothing to utilize. Just numbers that every idiot can create in their imagination. That's why you need new suckers to join the scheme and bring the resources in.

Try to accept that Satoshi Nakamoto scammed you. They created an online scam in which they anonymously sell you units of a number that they came up in their imagination. And you naive and greedy suckers fell for that stupidity.


Debt is a good resource to create more money out of thin air and devalue all bills and coins you have in your pocket. I give you that!
I don't understand what you are trying to say (sell) when you mention the numeric information about the size of debt. It's unrelated to the fact that the numbers you're talking about are exactly the same as the ones you refer when you talk about Bitcoin. But in your mind, ones have value (whatever that means to you) and the others don't. You're inconsistent and make no sense!

The numbers of your loved shitcoin have exactly the same resources as you say about the ones in Bitcoin. Zero, null, NaN. They represent even less than what they represented before 1971. They represent shit now. They represent the most paradoxal thing in history. Trust in a bunch of corrupt and greedy people! Yet, that's what makes you comfortable!
The only consistency shown  by you is that you fail to understand the digital side of all the properties needed to "make" a sound money!

If your shitcoin was that good, why the heck are we living the times that we are living? Are you just acting stupid or are you really stupid?

What you need to accept is that fiat uses no resources, have no resources, create no resources and is only used to control the brains of the retarded, by meaningless numbers.

Check this please and make it loop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AeO-dKGBLs

On the other hand, Bitcoin uses, resources, creates a resource (the currency to be able to be traded by goods/services/etc), needs no corrupt fuckers, greedy bastards to control it and it manages itself on it's own.
You're living a huge lie and you can't even see it! How retarded can someone be?

Open your eyes and your mind, don't be silly. You seem just another puppet that is passing by this earth with no goals, drive or anything! Sad!
copper member
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
July 04, 2022, 04:31:48 AM
Bitcoin is not a messaging system, its perhaps a transaction system. I really encourage your effort but, you need to search more.
hero member
Activity: 1050
Merit: 642
Magic
July 04, 2022, 04:12:55 AM


Try to accept that Satoshi Nakamoto scammed you. They created an online scam in which they anonymously sell you units of a number that they came up in their imagination. And you naive and greedy suckers fell for that stupidity.


What you don't seem to understand and what makes your whole presence at this forum pointless is, that everyone here benefits from bitcoin. People that are here use bitcoin to store wealth, to send money or simply because they are interested in the system. In my opionion you are someone who had bitcoins before but didn't keep them and therefor now wants to convince people to also sell theirs. But people here are not as stupid as you and you will not succeed.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
July 04, 2022, 01:07:04 AM
I'm not the thing here. You people are literally buying numbers from an anonymous guy. Just think about it. The guy comes up with a number 21 million and then sets up an online system to sell the units of that number to people. And people fell for it. Not only that, but they take the whole thing to the level of craziness where they pay $70.000 for a unit of that guy's number. And in your mind, I am somehow the problem? I am laughing my ass off when I read your responses.

It's true. I've been buying numbers my whole life from various nameless purported people and entities, with various morals and various agendas. I've probably paid for or enslaved myself to at least 20 different governments in my short life, in return for numbers, sometimes with a semblance of effort (paper) sometimes literally just made up numbers on an account they just change the numbers in arbitrarily.

They didn't even have to go through the trouble of capping the number, it's factually unlimited, they didn't even have to provide me or themselves a way to see exactly how much numbers it is they've put out or who has them.

Last year, one such government decided to print trillions more in paper to throw around. And people lapped it up, magic numbers magically made up and we all lapped in up.

Welcome to the craziness.
No, you have been buying debt, and being paid that debt by the borrowers in the market exchanges, even if you're not aware of that, because you don't ask market participants whether they are borrowers. Numbers in those exchanges were only information about how many units of debt you have had. Economic resources, such as debt, products, services, labour, equity... are what is sold or bought on the market, not numbers. Numbers just inform market participants about the quantity of the resources. In the Nakamoto's system, you're literally buying numbers. You're buying units of a number that Nakamoto created in their imagination(21 million). That's the definition of craziness. Even giving a dollar for a unit is craziness, let alone giving $70.000.

You call it what you want. Debt, bank accounts, vaults, whatever, it's just numbers. What value those number have? 0. The only thing that is keeping any value, if any, is some supposed agreement we (the people) agreed with to our corrupt, greedy, liar governments, banks and major businesses CEOs, etc which control the polititians in each country. You seem to have no idea what you're talking about or you're just a son of one of those bastards that keep ading numbers to the pile of shitcoin we have been forced to use for ages and taking any value it may have! That's all. Numbers, meaningless numbers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE
Of course, you can call a resource whatever you want ... it's still a resource. Debt is a resource because it provides utility at debt repayment or settlement. Fiat currency is simply a numeric information about the size of debt. This information is written on banknotes or bank accounts.

On the other hand, you can call a unit of a number whatever you want ... it's still a number. Bitcoin is a unit of the number 21 million. You can call it money, asset, digital gold. It's still a unit of that number. You can split it into subunits and call it Satoshi. It's still a subunit of that number. No resources here. Nothing to utilize. Just numbers that every idiot can create in their imagination. That's why you need new suckers to join the scheme and bring the resources in.

Try to accept that Satoshi Nakamoto scammed you. They created an online scam in which they anonymously sell you units of a number that they came up in their imagination. And you naive and greedy suckers fell for that stupidity.
hero member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 681
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
July 03, 2022, 04:30:17 PM
I'm not the thing here. You people are literally buying numbers from an anonymous guy. Just think about it. The guy comes up with a number 21 million and then sets up an online system to sell the units of that number to people. And people fell for it. Not only that, but they take the whole thing to the level of craziness where they pay $70.000 for a unit of that guy's number. And in your mind, I am somehow the problem? I am laughing my ass off when I read your responses.

It's true. I've been buying numbers my whole life from various nameless purported people and entities, with various morals and various agendas. I've probably paid for or enslaved myself to at least 20 different governments in my short life, in return for numbers, sometimes with a semblance of effort (paper) sometimes literally just made up numbers on an account they just change the numbers in arbitrarily.

They didn't even have to go through the trouble of capping the number, it's factually unlimited, they didn't even have to provide me or themselves a way to see exactly how much numbers it is they've put out or who has them.

Last year, one such government decided to print trillions more in paper to throw around. And people lapped it up, magic numbers magically made up and we all lapped in up.

Welcome to the craziness.
No, you have been buying debt, and being paid that debt by the borrowers in the market exchanges, even if you're not aware of that, because you don't ask market participants whether they are borrowers. Numbers in those exchanges were only information about how many units of debt you have had. Economic resources, such as debt, products, services, labour, equity... are what is sold or bought on the market, not numbers. Numbers just inform market participants about the quantity of the resources. In the Nakamoto's system, you're literally buying numbers. You're buying units of a number that Nakamoto created in their imagination(21 million). That's the definition of craziness. Even giving a dollar for a unit is craziness, let alone giving $70.000.

You call it what you want. Debt, bank accounts, vaults, whatever, it's just numbers. What value those number have? 0. The only thing that is keeping any value, if any, is some supposed agreement we (the people) agreed with to our corrupt, greedy, liar governments, banks and major businesses CEOs, etc which control the polititians in each country. You seem to have no idea what you're talking about or you're just a son of one of those bastards that keep ading numbers to the pile of shitcoin we have been forced to use for ages and taking any value it may have! That's all. Numbers, meaningless numbers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
July 02, 2022, 04:27:41 AM
I'm not the thing here. You people are literally buying numbers from an anonymous guy. Just think about it. The guy comes up with a number 21 million and then sets up an online system to sell the units of that number to people. And people fell for it. Not only that, but they take the whole thing to the level of craziness where they pay $70.000 for a unit of that guy's number. And in your mind, I am somehow the problem? I am laughing my ass off when I read your responses.

It's true. I've been buying numbers my whole life from various nameless purported people and entities, with various morals and various agendas. I've probably paid for or enslaved myself to at least 20 different governments in my short life, in return for numbers, sometimes with a semblance of effort (paper) sometimes literally just made up numbers on an account they just change the numbers in arbitrarily.

They didn't even have to go through the trouble of capping the number, it's factually unlimited, they didn't even have to provide me or themselves a way to see exactly how much numbers it is they've put out or who has them.

Last year, one such government decided to print trillions more in paper to throw around. And people lapped it up, magic numbers magically made up and we all lapped in up.

Welcome to the craziness.
No, you have been buying debt, and being paid that debt by the borrowers in the market exchanges, even if you're not aware of that, because you don't ask market participants whether they are borrowers. Numbers in those exchanges were only information about how many units of debt you have had. Economic resources, such as debt, products, services, labour, equity... are what is sold or bought on the market, not numbers. Numbers just inform market participants about the quantity of the resources. In the Nakamoto's system, you're literally buying numbers. You're buying units of a number that Nakamoto created in their imagination(21 million). That's the definition of craziness. Even giving a dollar for a unit is craziness, let alone giving $70.000.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 3724
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
July 02, 2022, 03:39:17 AM
I'm not the thing here. You people are literally buying numbers from an anonymous guy. Just think about it. The guy comes up with a number 21 million and then sets up an online system to sell the units of that number to people. And people fell for it. Not only that, but they take the whole thing to the level of craziness where they pay $70.000 for a unit of that guy's number. And in your mind, I am somehow the problem? I am laughing my ass off when I read your responses.

It's true. I've been buying numbers my whole life from various nameless purported people and entities, with various morals and various agendas. I've probably paid for or enslaved myself to at least 20 different governments in my short life, in return for numbers, sometimes with a semblance of effort (paper) sometimes literally just made up numbers on an account they just change the numbers in arbitrarily.

They didn't even have to go through the trouble of capping the number, it's factually unlimited, they didn't even have to provide me or themselves a way to see exactly how much numbers it is they've put out or who has them.

Last year, one such government decided to print trillions more in paper to throw around. And people lapped it up, magic numbers magically made up and we all lapped in up.

Welcome to the craziness.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
July 02, 2022, 03:30:06 AM

There's one problem with all this. There's no economic resource in the bitcoin system, so there's nothing to confiscate, counterfeit or put in trust. Meaning, people are just transferring the info on how many units in the scheme with zero economic resources they have. This is like having a losing lottery ticket, have 21 million ownership stakes in that ticket and all that people do is transferring and storing the info about how many stakes someone has or has had. There's nothing to confiscate, counterfeit or put in trust here, given that the ticket is a losing one and grants access to nothing. So, why would you spend time and energy on transferring and storing info on these stakes? It's a complete nonsense. That's the essence of the whole bitcoin system. It's the dumbest thing ever created. People are spending enormous amounts of energy only to store and transfer the info on how many stakes in nothing they have or had.


You are quite wrong and saying things non-sense non-stop.
What you miss is that the paradigm changed. You say there are no economic resources but you mean that you can't find the same economic resources in Bitcoin as the ones you find in gold. Well, you're completely wrong. Bitcoin has the same and even more, but in a digital way. This is the bit that makes all the difference and you just blindly chose not to acknowledge it.
For people like you, the old saying fits like a glove: HFSP.

Yet let's compare some of those properties that makes money, a sound money, using the most common examples, gold and Bitcoin:

Both are quite hard to increase supply (which is good)
Both lasts (theoretically) for ever (which is good)
These are only 2 examples of properties they share. There are others like portability, divisibility that only Bitcoin excels at, and others like sovereignty, privacy, anonymity, decentralisation, etc that are required so that a sound money can be seen as such.

All your messages also fail to enlighten us about what you defend after all. Is that the fiat system? Centralised bullshit that you blindly eat without any contestation whatsoever? If so, you're even worse than what I initially thought!

The fact that there is nothing to confiscate with Bitcoin is rather good. Improves your sovereignty and protects your intellectual and private property, however you seem to completely discard this. You seem to like to be controlled in every aspect of your live as a human being. Sad!

Tell us what the hell you defend so that we can also judge it and do differently than you do which is to make up things to get some attention, post count and eventually merit points! Keep up!
I'm not the thing here. You people are literally buying numbers from an anonymous guy. Just think about it. The guy comes up with a number 21 million and then sets up an online system to sell the units of that number to people. And people fell for it. Not only that, but they take the whole thing to the level of craziness where they pay $70.000 for a unit of that guy's number. And in your mind, I am somehow the problem? Because I observe and describe this craziness. I am laughing my ass off when I read your responses.
hero member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 681
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
July 01, 2022, 09:04:30 AM

There's one problem with all this. There's no economic resource in the bitcoin system, so there's nothing to confiscate, counterfeit or put in trust. Meaning, people are just transferring the info on how many units in the scheme with zero economic resources they have. This is like having a losing lottery ticket, have 21 million ownership stakes in that ticket and all that people do is transferring and storing the info about how many stakes someone has or has had. There's nothing to confiscate, counterfeit or put in trust here, given that the ticket is a losing one and grants access to nothing. So, why would you spend time and energy on transferring and storing info on these stakes? It's a complete nonsense. That's the essence of the whole bitcoin system. It's the dumbest thing ever created. People are spending enormous amounts of energy only to store and transfer the info on how many stakes in nothing they have or had.


You are quite wrong and saying things non-sense non-stop.
What you miss is that the paradigm changed. You say there are no economic resources but you mean that you can't find the same economic resources in Bitcoin as the ones you find in gold. Well, you're completely wrong. Bitcoin has the same and even more, but in a digital way. This is the bit that makes all the difference and you just blindly chose not to acknowledge it.
For people like you, the old saying fits like a glove: HFSP.

Yet let's compare some of those properties that makes money, a sound money, using the most common examples, gold and Bitcoin:

Both are quite hard to increase supply (which is good)
Both lasts (theoretically) for ever (which is good)
These are only 2 examples of properties they share. There are others like portability, divisibility that only Bitcoin excels at, and others like sovereignty, privacy, anonymity, decentralisation, etc that are required so that a sound money can be seen as such.

All your messages also fail to enlighten us about what you defend after all. Is that the fiat system? Centralised bullshit that you blindly eat without any contestation whatsoever? If so, you're even worse than what I initially thought!

The fact that there is nothing to confiscate with Bitcoin is rather good. Improves your sovereignty and protects your intellectual and private property, however you seem to completely discard this. You seem to like to be controlled in every aspect of your live as a human being. Sad!

Tell us what the hell you defend so that we can also judge it and do differently than you do which is to make up things to get some attention, post count and eventually merit points! Keep up!
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
July 01, 2022, 08:54:46 AM
I feel like joining this discussion is pointless, but I'll give it ago anyway...

Money is what people collectively choose to believe in. It happens that bitcoin is the best type of money ever invented.
Money is not a belief. Money is an economic resource that provides utility to humans. The degree of that utility is then compared to the degree of utility of other economic resources in order for people to exchange those resources.

I think this person might mean that fiat currencies are based on belief systems, at least since the 70s when they were no longer backed by anything. Which is sort of true, but not entirely.

Try cashing in a bank note to your national bank, they won't have anything of value to offer you. This much is true. They owe you X worth of Y, but since de-pegging from Gold, that X is no longer worth Gold (or anything) in comparison, there is no resource anymore. But I imagine someone already pointed this out to you. Of course proponents of fiat currencies will point out that these monies are backed by the Government itself, so is even better than being redeemable for Gold, but with this they simply mean that same Government can print more money (inflate the currency) to stabilise a weak economy, and most importantly will commit to doing so, as opposed to allowing the currency, and therefore economy, to fail. So in this sense, by your own definition, this money as an economic resource is worth something because the Government says it's worth something, and they'll make sure it continues to be worth something. Or at least they will try their best.  Some succeed, others fail. There's a good reason why Gold in the 70s increased from $35 to $800 since the de-pegging event, because many realised that fiat currencies were no longer backed by a popular resource, backed only by those who produce it, which set a dangerous precedent.

Your argument should therefore really be based not on the idea that a medium of exchange like Bitcoin isn't money, but that like other monies (hyper-inflationary failing economies), that it's worthless or otherwise unnecessary. But the issue here is you have to rule out some utility as being useful, namely unrestricted international payments and ability to open an account without needing authorisation or access from a central party. In countries with stable currencies it's easy to consider this as worthless or unnecessary for sure, but in countries that lack reliable monetary policies, a lot more difficult. Try telling someone who has a hyper-inflationary currency, and doesn't have access to dollars, that Bitcoin is fundamentally useless. Of course you could argue that Bitcoin isn't a good investment, due to the current volatility, but not that the most reliable or accessible medium of exchange for someone is useless. I'll ignore the inflationary properties and ownership abilities because these are monetary policies, as opposed to utilities.

So the real question becomes, does there need to be an international currency that is accessible to everyone regardless of geography, status, income, etc? Should countries have the ability to reduce or remove their dependency on political forms of monies such as the dollar or the euro that only leads to power being more centralised to certain nations? Obviously the Western world would generally argue no, and would rather have hyper-dependency on their own currencies, but others that live in countries that are dependant on the dollar, the euro, the pound or the rubble, but don't always have access to it (or limited access), would no doubt argue differently, as they don't have much of a choice in the matter.

To argue Bitcoin has no utility is therefore simply just baseless and no doubt comes from a position of privilege and ignorance - that of having access to a stable currency. You're better off arguing that as a utility, it's not worth $300 billion, or $1 trillion, etc, despite global debt curently being $300 trillion, or Gold being worth $11 trillion. The fact that fiat currencies have developed into a failed experiment since the 1970s, because it became dependant on humans to determine their value, is somewhat beside the point.

Bitcoin's immutable monetary policy simply rules out previous failures in developing reliable currencies. The only similarity is that adoption for new forms of currencies is slow, many remain skeptical, others simply consider them fraudulent until proven otherwise, such as when bank notes were introduced in the 17th century. Not many wanted "IOUs" back then, they wanted actual Gold or Silver, not a promise of it, but after realising they could redeem their bank note for Gold the "proof of concept" became clear, bank notes became more broadly adopted, even traded between different parties thereafter as we see today.

I was also a complete skeptic to begin with. The first thing I did when I bought Bitcoin was to purchase something online, in order to confirm it as a medium of exchange. Just like 17th century traders, I wasn't going to simply "take someone's word for it" that this new form of money was a medium of exchange unless I tested the theory out myself. So I exchanged it with another economic resource  Smiley

Fiat currencies are the records of debt. They are not supposed to be backed by anything given they are just information on how many debt units you have in the banking system. Debt units, that is, debt is what is backed. It's backed by the collaterals of the borrowers, which are under the management of the banking system. Debt is an economic resource because what is payable by one is receivable by another. Borrowers are literally every day providing labour, products, services and other economic resources to holders of fiat currencies and in that way settle their debt. If they default on the debt the banks will seize their collaterals and sell it to fiat currency holders in order to settle that debt. So, when you hold dollars you invested in debt, you invested in an economic resource that provides utility at debt repayment or settlement. When you hold bitcoins you invested in nothing. You just hold the units of the number 21 million that Nakamoto created in their imagination and their software attributed to your online addresses in order to inform you that you have been scammed out of your economic resources.

Thus, even mentioning bitcoins in the context of dollars is a nonsense of a high order. Dollars are records of an existing resource that you own. Bitcoin is a number attributed to your address.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 2213
July 01, 2022, 08:23:54 AM
I feel like joining this discussion is pointless, but I'll give it ago anyway...

Money is what people collectively choose to believe in. It happens that bitcoin is the best type of money ever invented.
Money is not a belief. Money is an economic resource that provides utility to humans. The degree of that utility is then compared to the degree of utility of other economic resources in order for people to exchange those resources.

I think this person might mean that fiat currencies are based on belief systems, at least since the 70s when they were no longer backed by anything. Which is sort of true, but not entirely.

Try cashing in a bank note to your national bank, they won't have anything of value to offer you. This much is true. They owe you X worth of Y, but since de-pegging from Gold, that X is no longer worth Gold (or anything) in comparison, there is no resource anymore. But I imagine someone already pointed this out to you. Of course proponents of fiat currencies will point out that these monies are backed by the Government itself, so is even better than being redeemable for Gold, but with this they simply mean that same Government can print more money (inflate the currency) to stabilise a weak economy, and most importantly will commit to doing so, as opposed to allowing the currency, and therefore economy, to fail. So in this sense, by your own definition, this money as an economic resource is worth something because the Government says it's worth something, and they'll make sure it continues to be worth something. Or at least they will try their best.  Some succeed, others fail. There's a good reason why Gold in the 70s increased from $35 to $800 since the de-pegging event, because many realised that fiat currencies were no longer backed by a popular resource, backed only by those who produce it, which set a dangerous precedent.

Your argument should therefore really be based not on the idea that a medium of exchange like Bitcoin isn't money, but that like other monies (hyper-inflationary failing economies), that it's worthless or otherwise unnecessary. But the issue here is you have to rule out some utility as being useful, namely unrestricted international payments and ability to open an account without needing authorisation or access from a central party. In countries with stable currencies it's easy to consider this as worthless or unnecessary for sure, but in countries that lack reliable monetary policies, a lot more difficult. Try telling someone who has a hyper-inflationary currency, and doesn't have access to dollars, that Bitcoin is fundamentally useless. Of course you could argue that Bitcoin isn't a good investment, due to the current volatility, but not that the most reliable or accessible medium of exchange for someone is useless. I'll ignore the inflationary properties and ownership abilities because these are monetary policies, as opposed to utilities.

So the real question becomes, does there need to be an international currency that is accessible to everyone regardless of geography, status, income, etc? Should countries have the ability to reduce or remove their dependency on political forms of monies such as the dollar or the euro that only leads to power being more centralised to certain nations? Obviously the Western world would generally argue no, and would rather have hyper-dependency on their own currencies, but others that live in countries that are dependant on the dollar, the euro, the pound or the rubble, but don't always have access to it (or limited access), would no doubt argue differently, as they don't have much of a choice in the matter.

To argue Bitcoin has no utility is therefore simply just baseless and no doubt comes from a position of privilege and ignorance - that of having access to a stable currency. You're better off arguing that as a utility, it's not worth $300 billion, or $1 trillion, etc, despite global debt curently being $300 trillion, or Gold being worth $11 trillion. The fact that fiat currencies have developed into a failed experiment since the 1970s, because it became dependant on humans to determine their value, is somewhat beside the point.

Bitcoin's immutable monetary policy simply rules out previous failures in developing reliable currencies. The only similarity is that adoption for new forms of currencies is slow, many remain skeptical, others simply consider them fraudulent until proven otherwise, such as when bank notes were introduced in the 17th century. Not many wanted "IOUs" back then, they wanted actual Gold or Silver, not a promise of it, but after realising they could redeem their bank note for Gold the "proof of concept" became clear, bank notes became more broadly adopted, even traded between different parties thereafter as we see today.

I was also a complete skeptic to begin with. The first thing I did when I bought Bitcoin was to purchase something online, in order to confirm it as a medium of exchange. Just like 17th century traders, I wasn't going to simply "take someone's word for it" that this new form of money was a medium of exchange unless I tested the theory out myself. So I exchanged it with another economic resource  Smiley
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
July 01, 2022, 06:51:07 AM
Satoshi Nakamoto is the identity used by the unknown person, people or organization that authored the so called Bitcoin Whitepaper. In that paper, they claimed to have invented money, and a system based on cryptographic proof that uses that money and allows parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted third party. Basically, they claimed to have invented a payment system with its own money. However, that was not true. They invented neither money nor payment system. Instead, they created a fraudulent investment scheme. The scheme was arranged as follows. First they developed protocols and software for attributing the scheme units to online addresses of scheme participants. But here’s the catch: the scheme units were not the units of economic resources, be it: products, capital, land, debt, licences, patents, copyrights, etc. Instead, they were just the units of a number created in Nakamoto’s imagination – 21 million. Nakamoto gave the units of their imaginary number the name “bitcoins” (lowercase “b”). Protocols and software were given the name “Bitcoin” (uppercase “B”). Then, whenever the so called “bitcoin miners” join the scheme by investing the electricity to make the system running, the software simply attributes a specific amount of Nakamoto’s imaginary units to their addresses. The amount is, of course, predetermined by the protocols. The record of attribution is stored on a distributed ledger called "blockchain". Finally, the units are accessible through the special software applications called “bitcoin wallets”. Miners use those to transfer the units to other participants that want to join the scheme. And that’s literally it. That’s Nakamoto scheme in a nutshell.

The fraud in this scheme is obviously contained in the scheme units (bitcoins). The Bitcoin Whitepaper falsely presented these units to the public as the units of money. Later, the scheme participants also started to call them: “a currency”, “a reward”, “tokens”, “an asset”, “digital gold”, etc. So, the false public presentation of scheme units as “money”, and later as “asset”, is the central point of the fraud. This is how people are lured to join the scheme. Namely, money and asset are the generic terms that people use when referring to economic resources. And it is economic resources what people are supposed to invest into the scheme. It is economic resources what all fraudsters want to get their hands on. This is the ultimate goal of all investments frauds. And that is, of course, because the economic resources are what provide utility to people. For example. Products, labor, or services, are resources that provide utility because they satisfy human needs. Land is a resource that provides utility because it supports all human activities. Shares in the companies are resources that provide utility because they grant access to profits or equity of the companies. Debt units represented with fiat currencies are resources that provide utility, because they grant access to products, labor, services or collaterals of the borrowers at debt repayment or settlement. So, other people’s economic resources are what the fraudsters are always up to. And given that money and asset are the generic terms for economic resources, calling the units of Nakamoto’s imaginary number “money”, and later “asset”, was a perfect way to deceive people and lure them into the scheme. People would simply think that they are just exchanging one type of money or asset for another. Hence, a nice trick.

But once people are in the scheme, they realize that the units they hold are not the units of economic resources. They realize that Nakamoto scheme is completely void of anything that can provide utility to anyone. So they must dump their worthless units to someone else. Only in that way they can get the resources back and have the utility. And for that reason, they are forced to spread the same disinformation that was used by Nakamoto in the Bitcoin Whitepaper. They must publicly present their scheme units as money. From that necessity, the whole propaganda and false advertising came about. And now the scheme units are not just “money”, but ‘revolutionary money’. ‘Scarce money’. ‘Money that saves people from inflation and poverty’. ‘Money that provides freedom from the governments’. And so on. Due to the fact that Nakamoto scheme is online, and thus global, and given there are a lot of gullible and naive people around the world, the propaganda was successful. It was successful so much, that on the one hand, it pumped up the price of scheme unit from zero, to a high of $70,000, with the current price around $20,000. And on the other hand, it made the whole industry to pop up. This industry is now known by the name “crypto industry”.

To conclude. Satoshi Nakamoto fooled the world by taking a traditional fraudulent investment scheme and disguise it by splitting it into units that were put online and presented to the public as the units of money. The disguise was successful and people fall for it. But given that, in its core, Nakamoto scheme is a good old investment fraud, it contains zero economic resources for the participants to access. Which is why the earlier participants can return their investment of resources only from resources brought by more recent participants. Consequently, if people stop participating (buying the scheme units), then there are no resources anymore. And those that are left holding the units, are literally left with nothing.

Source: https://btcfraud.wordpress.com/

If that is the case then whole banking system is a fraud, as you do not own any thing inspite of some number in your credit card. You just talk about BTC, then what about other financial system commodities, cash, money, what is all this. Bitcoin is just bullied because it was invented by a normal person, no government involve no institution back up this currency that is why it has security concern and called as a pyramid fraud scheme. If that system given by some renowned organization then every would go and said it is the future. But to be honest life is full of miracles and BTC in one of them.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
July 01, 2022, 05:52:52 AM
Money is what people collectively choose to believe in. It happens that bitcoin is the best type of money ever invented.
Money is not a belief. Money is an economic resource that provides utility to humans. The degree of that utility is then compared to the degree of utility of other economic resources in order for people to exchange those resources.

Bitcoin is a unit of the number 21 million that Nakamoto created in their imagination. It cannot be money by definition given that no utility exist to compare it with the utility of economic resources. It's simply a fraud unit, not money.
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 2
July 01, 2022, 05:39:22 AM
Money is what people collectively choose to believe in. It happens that bitcoin is the best type of money ever invented.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
July 01, 2022, 04:17:08 AM
What the heck? How such thread has like 30 pages? I think the OP is actually getting what he was asking for... Attention. Come on peeps... Ignore these kind of posts and let him be alone in his little world.

I have to admit that the original post is actually one of the best rhetoric twisted narratives I have ever seen. This looks like "Pudding" (my alias for Putin) trying to make us believe that a mall is actually an ammo depot or that a paediatric hospital was a command center or another ammo depot!

This guy must have learn from Pudding because despite the fact the Pudding was in FSB and is supposedly very good at lying and deceiving, they are both terrible with their narratives! And I end up also contributing. lol
What a mess!
You know what Mark Twain said:

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

You guys are proving him right nicely.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
June 30, 2022, 10:51:11 AM
This thread is crazy and I still that know why op will have to drop this here. Is there anyone that is interested in arguing with this thread when op is not the actually the original authur of this post. Any person can choose to write whatsoever they like and that is welcome. Bitcoin is an asset in as much as it is making person make wealth. Everything is timing and nothing more. Bitcoin is down now and will soon go bullish letter just like the price had been fluctuating.

So you think that units of a number that Nakamoto imagined in their mind are asset although you know that without other people joining the Nakamoto scheme you're left with literally nothing? How's that not delusional?
jr. member
Activity: 447
Merit: 1
June 30, 2022, 09:57:42 AM
Bitcoin fanciers should count themselves lucky that the entire world press has become obsessed with the cabaret over whether a 64-year-old Temple City software engineer is the Satoshi Nakamoto, the fabled mysterious/pseudonymous inventor/inventors of bitcoins.

That’s because the pursuit of the corporeal Mr. Nakamoto has distracted everyone’s attention from the real problems with bitcoins, which erupted last month with the collapse of the Mt. Gox bitcoin exchange--at one time the largest bitcoin exchange in the world--and have only continued to look worse. He believes that there is a place for crypocurrencies like bitcoin--in fact, Ben Bernanke and many other current or former central bankers agree--but a sustainable model won’t look like bitcoin. The one good thing about the collapse of Mt. Gox, he concludes, is that if you can prove your loss to the IRS, it’s tax-deductible.In this way Satoshi nakamoto fooled the world.
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