How to end Bitcoin with as little as 15% of hashpower efficiently - page 3.

Flashman

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Hodl!

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:53:45 AM

Quote from: Flashman on January 06, 2015, 06:45:17 AM

Title needs to be changed to, "How to slightly inconvenience bitcoin by throwing 70 million dollars away"

I wonder, what such an attack would actually cost. I think, even if you have the money to buy it, the market might not be able to provide the hardware instantly.
Try buying 10% of all iPhone 6.

Yah I think you'd have to buy up 3 or 4 months of Antminer production or something.

LeChatNoir

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Coinpanion.io - Copy Successful Crypto Traders

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:36:13 AM

The Bitcoin network is much stronger than that of his clones. You can't really compare them.
There are even people in the network, who still mine for the fun of it or just to support Bitcoin, not to make a profit.

Do you really think there is more then 0.000000001% of the hashrate provided by people who mine at loss just to support bitcoin?

POW fanatics you are so delusional.

turvarya

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Quote from: Flashman on January 06, 2015, 06:45:17 AM

Title needs to be changed to, "How to slightly inconvenience bitcoin by throwing 70 million dollars away"

I wonder, what such an attack would actually cost. I think, even if you have the money to buy it, the market might not be able to provide the hardware instantly.
Try buying 10% of all iPhone 6.

waaat?

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Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:42:07 AM

Do you really think, professional miners would trash their expensive hardware, they can't use for anything else than mining, when the difficulty goes up? That would be pretty stupid from an economical POV.

no they don't of course. That's why the attack takes place at exact the time many miners close down due to being unprofitable anyways (on their own). But it says that in the OP aswell. Short: Anticipated natural decline of hash (due to being unprofitable) would be reinforced by the attacker.
The attacker uses an anticipated and predictable decline in hash (which would be happening without him doing anything) to his advantage.

Flashman

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Hodl!

Title needs to be changed to, "How to slightly inconvenience bitcoin by throwing 70 million dollars away"

turvarya

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Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:39:33 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:36:13 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:32:31 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:28:47 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:25:11 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:21:12 AM

That wouldn't end Bitcoin. It might make some trouble, but even that wouldn't that big.
Even if you could drop the hashrate 50%(which is complete bullshit, since if it drops miners with older hardware just go in again), that just means double confirmation time. So what? It adjust after 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks, big deal ...

why would miners with old gear go in on high difficulty? The hashrate doesn't make a difference for them, the difficulty does.
Well, we assume a further decline as time passes eventually leading to everyone drop out.

And there you are wrong. The overall hashrate tells them if they find the block or somebody else finds the block. The difficulty just tells them how long it will take them(or someone else) to find it.
Why would we assume a further decline? Everybody knows, that there will be a new adjustment in 4 weeks max.

the situation would be: high difficulty stuck and low hashrate
clones of bitcoin died this way before.

The Bitcoin network is much stronger than that of his clones. You can't really compare them.
There are even people in the network, who still mine for the fun of it or just to support Bitcoin, not to make a profit.

sure. The way presented here makes it affordable though.
The few hobbyminers left will not want to mine if they can't even find a block in a day.

Do you really think, professional miners would trash their expensive hardware, they can't use for anything else than mining, when the difficulty goes up? That would be pretty stupid from an economical POV.

waaat?

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Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:36:13 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:32:31 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:28:47 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:25:11 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:21:12 AM

That wouldn't end Bitcoin. It might make some trouble, but even that wouldn't that big.
Even if you could drop the hashrate 50%(which is complete bullshit, since if it drops miners with older hardware just go in again), that just means double confirmation time. So what? It adjust after 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks, big deal ...

why would miners with old gear go in on high difficulty? The hashrate doesn't make a difference for them, the difficulty does.
Well, we assume a further decline as time passes eventually leading to everyone drop out.

And there you are wrong. The overall hashrate tells them if they find the block or somebody else finds the block. The difficulty just tells them how long it will take them(or someone else) to find it.
Why would we assume a further decline? Everybody knows, that there will be a new adjustment in 4 weeks max.

the situation would be: high difficulty stuck and low hashrate
clones of bitcoin died this way before.

The Bitcoin network is much stronger than that of his clones. You can't really compare them.
There are even people in the network, who still mine for the fun of it or just to support Bitcoin, not to make a profit.

sure. The way presented here makes it affordable though.
The few hobbyminers left will not want to mine if they can't even find a block in a day.
Clones is just smaller scale and happend on accident (or not) with large hash being on and off.

turvarya

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Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:32:31 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:28:47 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:25:11 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:21:12 AM

That wouldn't end Bitcoin. It might make some trouble, but even that wouldn't that big.
Even if you could drop the hashrate 50%(which is complete bullshit, since if it drops miners with older hardware just go in again), that just means double confirmation time. So what? It adjust after 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks, big deal ...

why would miners with old gear go in on high difficulty? The hashrate doesn't make a difference for them, the difficulty does.
Well, we assume a further decline as time passes eventually leading to everyone drop out.

And there you are wrong. The overall hashrate tells them if they find the block or somebody else finds the block. The difficulty just tells them how long it will take them(or someone else) to find it.
Why would we assume a further decline? Everybody knows, that there will be a new adjustment in 4 weeks max.

the situation would be: high difficulty stuck and low hashrate
clones of bitcoin died this way before.

The Bitcoin network is much stronger than that of his clones. You can't really compare them.
There are even people in the network, who still mine for the fun of it or just to support Bitcoin, not to make a profit.

waaat?

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Activity: 574

Merit: 104

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:28:47 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:25:11 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:21:12 AM

That wouldn't end Bitcoin. It might make some trouble, but even that wouldn't that big.
Even if you could drop the hashrate 50%(which is complete bullshit, since if it drops miners with older hardware just go in again), that just means double confirmation time. So what? It adjust after 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks, big deal ...

why would miners with old gear go in on high difficulty? The hashrate doesn't make a difference for them, the difficulty does.
Well, we assume a further decline as time passes eventually leading to everyone drop out.

And there you are wrong. The overall hashrate tells them if they find the block or somebody else finds the block. The difficulty just tells them how long it will take them(or someone else) to find it.
Why would we assume a further decline? Everybody knows, that there will be a new adjustment in 4 weeks max.

the situation would be: high difficulty stuck and low hashrate
clones of bitcoin died this way before so it's actually not new.
What makes it possible is the long times between difficult adjustements.

turvarya

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Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:25:11 AM

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:21:12 AM

That wouldn't end Bitcoin. It might make some trouble, but even that wouldn't that big.
Even if you could drop the hashrate 50%(which is complete bullshit, since if it drops miners with older hardware just go in again), that just means double confirmation time. So what? It adjust after 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks, big deal ...

why would miners with old gear go in on high difficulty? The hashrate doesn't make a difference for them, the difficulty does.
Well, we assume a further decline as time passes eventually leading to everyone drop out.

And there you are wrong. The overall hashrate tells them if they find the block or somebody else finds the block. The difficulty just tells them how long it will take them(or someone else) to find it.
Why would we assume a further decline? Everybody knows, that there will be a new adjustment in 4 weeks max.

waaat?

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Activity: 574

Merit: 104

Quote from: turvarya on January 06, 2015, 06:21:12 AM

That wouldn't end Bitcoin. It might make some trouble, but even that wouldn't that big.
Even if you could drop the hashrate 50%(which is complete bullshit, since if it drops miners with older hardware just go in again), that just means double confirmation time. So what? It adjust after 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks, big deal ...

why would miners with old gear go in on high difficulty? The hashrate doesn't make a difference for them, the difficulty does.
Well, we assume a further decline as time passes eventually leading to everyone drop out.

Price fall, mining even more unprofitable for the reason of low price aswell as long blocksolving. It's a chainreaction that just needs to be properly started.

turvarya

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That wouldn't end Bitcoin. It might make some trouble, but even that wouldn't that big.
Even if you could drop the hashrate 50%(which is complete bullshit, since if it drops miners with older hardware just go in again), that just means double confirmation time. So what? It adjust after 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks, big deal ...

waaat?

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Activity: 574

Merit: 104

Quote from: slacknation on January 06, 2015, 06:11:08 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:04:25 AM

Quote from: slacknation on January 06, 2015, 06:02:27 AM

for the same difficulty but half the hashrate will just mean blocks take double the time to be confirmed.

i think this is a false assumption as diff should be calculated with another algo

would you be able to explain this further?
outputs of good hash functions can be accepted to be a uniform distribution

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty

Quote from: newuser01 on January 06, 2015, 06:15:02 AM

no this would not work and it would be wasting money for nothing.

can you explain why?

newuser01

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no this would not work and it would be wasting money for nothing.

slacknation

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Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 06:04:25 AM

Quote from: slacknation on January 06, 2015, 06:02:27 AM

for the same difficulty but half the hashrate will just mean blocks take double the time to be confirmed.

i think this is a false assumption as diff should be calculated with another algo

would you be able to explain this further?
outputs of good hash functions can be accepted to be a uniform distribution

waaat?

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Merit: 104

Quote from: slacknation on January 06, 2015, 06:02:27 AM

for the same difficulty but half the hashrate will just mean blocks take double the time to be confirmed.

i think this is a false assumption as diff should be calculated with another algo

waaat?

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Quote from: mestar on January 06, 2015, 06:01:05 AM

Explain again your "hours to solve" part.

hashrate drops on high difficulty by a considerable amount. The remaining miners now need much more time to solve blocks. Read up on what difficulty and difficulty retarget is.

slacknation

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Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 05:48:50 AM

Quote from: mestar on January 06, 2015, 05:42:02 AM

Quote from: waaat? on January 06, 2015, 05:15:48 AM

Once the miners drop out (10% to 15% of the network is enough) you withdraw your extra-hash from it.
Result: bitcoin is stuck at high difficulty as it retargets only every 2016 blocks. Blocks could take hours to solve.

10 to 15% increase of 10 minutes is not 'hours'. It is in fact 11 minutes.

10% to 15% is what you directly control. It's about controlling hashrate indirectly with priceaction aswell as using natural movements which can easily amount to much more.
The point is: it's actually possible to force a drop of hashrate of 40% or more by pumping it artificially before a natural drop would occure.

The attack consists of many components and needs good timing but would end bitcoin on the spot.

for the same difficulty but half the hashrate will just mean blocks take double the time to be confirmed. so indeed we will end up with a slow network but not to the extend that it is unable to recover. Anyway this will only happen if the price of bitcoin crashes but if this becomes true then there is no value in bitcoins thus no need to employ your method to crash the bitcoin network.

mestar

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Explain again your "hours to solve" part.

insidertradingeverywhere

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needs quite some recouces but would be much more fatal than just a 51% attack
And it's cheaper than 51% for sure.
Shocking stuff.

Topic: How to end Bitcoin with as little as 15% of hashpower efficiently - page 3. (Read 2526 times)