Topic: How to Identify a Ponzi - page 8. (Read 132830 times)

These indicators are just things to look out for when investing.  Investments that fit multiple indicators have an increased risk of being a ponzi.

So basically what you're saying is nearly every single Bitcoin investment/loan/offer is a ponzi, because I don't think there are many at all that offer less than 50% a year

http://www.amazon.com/The-Vigilant-Investor-Fraud-Proof-Investments/dp/0814417507

Anyone got recommendations for good, technical, analytical books on ponzi schemes? 

(This is interesting, this is not.)

"Chasing Madoff" was really very interesting, here's an interview with the guy who first proposed Bernie as a ponzi op:
http://youtu.be/cfwJ06hc0_8?t=4m48s (the whole thing's very interesting and relevant)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s68FR1MXT8Q

But yes, I would've thought that due diligence requires any sensible investor to go over the steps outlined in here before handing someone any considerable amount of cash. It is almost certain that some of the deposit schemes on offer here are illegitimate.

9. occams razor

I'm interested in developing a list of questions/variables that are associated with Ponzis.

Here is my short list.  Please add items to this list and I'll edit the post.

Ponzi Indicators
1. High rate of return
Explanation: ponzi schemes typically offer very high rates of return that are not possible.  Anything that is > 50%/year APR is suspicious.  Anything > 500% APR is very suspicious.  Ponzis can offer lower rates as well (see Maddoff - 10% APR), but these are less common.

2.  Provides no evidence of business activity
They refuse to show what they are investing their capital, what products(s) or services they are selling, and who the customers are.  By contrast a mining corporation will be able to provide pictures of hardware and statistics of how many BTC generated per month.

3. Business activity is "speculation"
Speculation doesn't make steady rates of return. In fact the return rate should often be negative.

4. Steady rates of return
When combined with a high rate of return that is greater than the market rate of return this is suspicious.

5. Increasing demand for capital
Unlike a regular business which has its largest demand for capital at the start, the ponzi starts off with a very small amount of capital ("refuses" deposits), and then grows rapidly.  An increasing demand for capital makes sense only if the business can show what the money is being used for.  A ponzi will need to have its capital grow at a standard rate that exceeds the withdrawals, whereas a legitimate business will have a varying rate of investment (and this rate will often hit zero).

6. Operator hides their identity
If the name and identity of the person who runs this project is publicly known, and they live in a jurisdiction where it would be easy to prosecute them then they are less likely to run away with the money.  Though there are exceptions to this (perhaps too many for this to be a good indicator?).

7. A Super Majority of Non-Investors view it as a Ponzi
If a business is only defended as legitimate by those who are invested in it, while the overwhelming majority of individuals who have no money to gain from taking a position see it as a ponzi -- it is likely that the non-investors are more trustworthy in their assessment.

8. They advertise a "Limited Availability"
They have a low demand for funds.  Especially in the early phase.  Ideally they've got people chomping at the bit to be included in the scheme.

9. They have "Pass-Throughs".
Tentatively this seems like a good indicator. I don't think pass-throughs are typically used in regular project funding.  It increases the distance between the investor and the fund-owner and acts as a shield/distraction.  It is more indicative of money laundering.


First-Hand Ponzi Accounts
Chasing Maddoff - movie
The Man Who Would Be Polka King - movie account of a polka performer / ponzi that stole $5-$10 million.

EVE Ponzi First Hand Account
http://web.archive.org/web/20091026234156/http://geocities.com/currintrading/
http://web.archive.org/web/20091021193732/http://geocities.com/currintrading/bank.html

Books  
(I haven't read them but the Amazon reviews look good)
http://www.amazon.com/Robbing-You-Keyboard-Instead-Gun/dp/1453895299/
http://www.amazon.com/The-Vigilant-Investor-Fraud-Proof-Investments/dp/0814417507



Vladmir's Resources
Thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-to-recognise-a-ponzi-scheme-91643

There are many resources dedicated to helping people to recognize and avoid scams:
http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/consumerinformation/scamsandswindles
http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/02597.html
http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/vwapj/Little-Black-Book-Scams-e.pdf
http://www.kpmg.com/ca/en/whatwedo/specialinterests/at-risk-magazine/pages/ponzischemes%E2%80%93howtorecognizethem.aspx
http://www.fbi.gov/scams-safety/fraud/


There is some action that can be taken by people to protect themselves and others:
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/consumerinformation/if_things_go_wrong
http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/02801.html


Reports on Ponzis
http://www.marquetinternational.com/pdf/marquet_report_on_ponzi_schemes.pdf