I don’t think bitcoin is now decentralized - page 2.

redsun114

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Quote from: yhiaali3 on December 22, 2023, 10:24:08 PM

In my opinion, this protocol should be changed so that miners are not able to choose the transactions with the highest fees, but rather have to execute transactions in their chronological order. This can reduce the mad race to raise fees to speed up the confirmation of transactions.

So, you mean that a person who initiates a transaction with 15sat/byte before a person who does it with 100sat/byte should get their transaction confirmed before? How does that make sense? In such a system, there should be no fees at all, and every transaction should cost a certain amount without giving the user the ability to adjust the fees as per their payment capability to get their transaction confirmed quicker. A fixed transaction based on the amount, and transactions being confirmed in chronological order, it's miners' luck if how much fees they get in every block they mine.

Satoshi probably created the chain and the whole system this way because he wanted to give users the freedom to choose how much they want to pay as the fees for each transaction so that if a person wants to pay less and wait longer can let those who are willing to pay higher to get it done quickly go first.

Blitzboy

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Indeed, mempool dynamics balance cost and speed. You're right - low fees frequently equal long transaction confirmation waits. Its important to Bitcoin's operation. One can't avoid this mechanism with low fees, especially during high-demand periods like halving events. Due to rising Bitcoin activity and interest, each halving has raised transaction costs.

This mechanism is important, though. Security and network capacity regulation are its goals. Despite its inconvenience, this strategy protects the network. Anyone using Bitcoin must understand and respect this balance. Expectations must match blockchain technology's nature. Patience and intelligent fee bidding are essential here.

We must be knowledgeable and flexible going forward. Our Bitcoin ecosystem interactions must evolve as Bitcoin does. The idea is to anticipate and respond to these shifts, especially around major events like halving.

HONDACD125

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Quote from: fredericktaylor on December 24, 2023, 12:01:49 AM

For those of us who do small transactions, the difficulty is especially high as small transactions are charged more.Those who are charging more are working earlier and those who are charging less are doing it later. In my opinion, to reduce these charges, we all need to be a little more stable and if we are stable, the transaction fees will be reduced. As we reduce transactions the mempool congestion will decrease and as congestion decreases high transaction fees will decrease.

Whether the transaction is for a small amount or for a big amount, the fee will be the same. There is quite a problem here for small traders, however, they should not transact in situations where the fees are being charged too high.Those with large sums don't care about the fees, which causes problems for small transactions. Your advice is good, wherever the network gets congested, these problems happen and we create them ourselves.

However, these problems are often seen, but every person is making transactions according to his needs, so it cannot be said that all people will become stable. Few people can adopt this method but it is impossible for everyone, because every person has their own needs.

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Quote from: itsmyfirstaccount on December 22, 2023, 07:36:55 PM

About 20+ days ago ,I sent a transaction with 5000sats fee.

20+ !

It hasn’t been confirmed yet!

Ok to pay more ,confirmed faster.

But isn’t it ok for pay less confirm slower?

The miners are too centralized,and a lot of dust trans was made every day.

From A to A with high fee rate! Why does this transaction exist?

I don’t think a normal man would make such a nonsense transaction.

So what do you think is decentralization? Bitcoin does not exist just to serve you, you should understand that first and are you willing to learn more about transactions that you are not willing to pay more fees to speed up? I've seen the "fee" issue brought up a lot recently and people keep blaming it for being expensive and slow... Let's better understand the appeal of bitcoin that many people are still willing and trusting in it. I have no intention of using bitcoin in all daily activities at the moment, but these problems will be solved if acceptance becomes more widespread. That in itself is decentralization, so if you can't accept it then you are probably moving towards centralization.

fredericktaylor

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For those of us who do small transactions, the difficulty is especially high as small transactions are charged more.Those who are charging more are working earlier and those who are charging less are doing it later. In my opinion, to reduce these charges, we all need to be a little more stable and if we are stable, the transaction fees will be reduced. As we reduce transactions the mempool congestion will decrease and as congestion decreases high transaction fees will decrease.

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on December 23, 2023, 07:39:25 PM

The confirmation time is not proportional to fee. If the fee is below certain threshold, your transaction will probably never be confirmed. Like, if you put a 1 sat/vByte fee, it may never be confirmed if the fee will never be so low ever again, or if so much time will pass that the transaction will be removed from mempool by then.

So at the end of the day, you really can't defeat the system that's reigning in the mempool, you'll still have to put some money into your transactions and not just lazily putting the lowest possible because you can wait for a long time for the confirmation? I didn't know that, thank you. It's kind of sad though that this is how it's going to be with transaction fees, you can't pay too low or your transaction won't come through but you don't want to pay absurd amounts just to have the normal speed in transactions. I hope these ordinals lose their charm before the halving.

yhiaali3

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Quote from: thecodebear on December 23, 2023, 09:53:28 PM

Bitcoin's mining / transactions / fees protocol was designed brilliantly. It does not need to be changed at all. And definitely should be changed to something like this that would cause major problems with Bitcoin's operation and simply be untenable for the various reasons I outlined here.

Thank you for discussing the idea in detail from all aspects.

There is no doubt that the Bitcoin mining/transaction/fee protocol was designed with ingenuity and high efficiency, but it may not have taken into account that transactions on the network will increase dramatically in the future. The current state of the network is a simple indicator of what could happen in the future if global adoption occurs and there are millions of transactions on a daily basis. What's the solution? Do we just pay the insanely high fees?

I also wonder why other networks operate with high efficiency and great speed with low fees, such as the Binance network and the Tron network, even though they have large traffic and there are thousands of transactions carried out daily and do not cause congestion problems like those found on the Bitcoin network?

EarnOnVictor

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Quote from: itsmyfirstaccount on December 22, 2023, 07:36:55 PM

About 20+ days ago ,I sent a transaction with 5000sats fee.

20+ !

It hasn’t been confirmed yet!

Ok to pay more ,confirmed faster.

But isn’t it ok for pay less confirm slower?

The miners are too centralized,and a lot of dust trans was made every day.

From A to A with high fee rate! Why does this transaction exist?

I don’t think a normal man would make such a nonsense transaction.

I share in your frustration and if you get angry more than that, it is worth it as Bitcoin is not living up to the expectations. Frankly, I had many series of posts about the fee issues in the past but people tend to always support the system and believe that my suggestion can't work. But here we are, the so-called perfect system is just being manipulated and monopolised by some sectional people called miners. Thanks to the system.

They had the opportunity and used to go for the highest bidder while the system continues to allow such unabated. Well, I do not see this as a perfect system while other blockchains are experienced seamless transactions with low fees. However, this is not a reason for Bitcoin to be decentralised if you know the true meaning of decentralization. It is just a way to prove the imperfection of the system and the need for developers to still go back to work and curb the menace.

icalical

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Quote from: itsmyfirstaccount on December 22, 2023, 07:36:55 PM

About 20+ days ago ,I sent a transaction with 5000sats fee.

20+ !

It hasn’t been confirmed yet!

Ok to pay more ,confirmed faster.

But isn’t it ok for pay less confirm slower?

The miners are too centralized,and a lot of dust trans was made every day.

From A to A with high fee rate! Why does this transaction exist?

I don’t think a normal man would make such a nonsense transaction.

That's a very wrong understanding on how Bitcoin transaction and decentralization work. The risk of high-fee when transaction amount is sky-rocketing is the risk of decentralization. More people want their transaction proceed so they are competing to raise the fee, miners is not the one who raised the fee, people who are transacting bitcoin are the one that raised the fee and the miners is happily benefiting from this issue. We all know why the transaction fee is skyrocketing, the network is bloated with all those ordinals and BRC-20, and no one/nothing interfere if this is what the most people want to do with bitcoin blockchain, that is because there is no central entity.

thecodebear

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Quote from: yhiaali3 on December 23, 2023, 09:39:49 PM

Quote from: Poker Player on December 23, 2023, 01:08:09 AM

Quote from: yhiaali3 on December 22, 2023, 10:24:08 PM

In my opinion, this protocol should be changed so that miners are not able to choose the transactions with the highest fees, but rather have to execute transactions in their chronological order. This can reduce the mad race to raise fees to speed up the confirmation of transactions.

That you say is bullshit because everyone would send transactions with the minimum fee and instead of having hundreds of thousands of spam transactions on the blockchain we would have millions waiting to be executed, thus making it impractical. Besides, as the block reward would go down, mining would not be profitable for miners.

Why nonsense, my dear? Think about it if an economical fixed rate of fees was paid that would be profitable for miners and good for users at the same time.

This means that if a fixed percentage is set, for example $2-3 per transaction, it will be good for both parties, and in the future when the mining rewards decrease after each halving, this percentage can be increased to be profitable for the miners to continue their work.

So many problems with your idea.

First off txs fees aren't in dollars, but in satoshis. And the value of a satoshi obviously changes. So you're 'fixed' fee would actually be a very volatile fee, which would simply follow Bitcoin's price changes meaning over the long term the fee would get incredibly large once the price of bitcoin is in the millions of dollars.

Also you mention the "fixed" rate can be increased after each halving....so that would presumably require a hard fork protocol change after every halving...not going to happen. Not to mention the needed fork to change from a market fee to a fixed fee in the first place.

And a first come first serve tx protocol as you suggest could very easily be spammed by bad actors, making it so transactions take days or weeks to get through. That isn't possible with the market fee because anyone can simply put in a high enough fee to get their transaction in the next block.

Bitcoin's mining / transactions / fees protocol was designed brilliantly. It does not need to be changed at all. And definitely should be changed to something like this that would cause major problems with Bitcoin's operation and simply be untenable for the various reasons I outlined here.

yhiaali3

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Quote from: Poker Player on December 23, 2023, 01:08:09 AM

Quote from: yhiaali3 on December 22, 2023, 10:24:08 PM

In my opinion, this protocol should be changed so that miners are not able to choose the transactions with the highest fees, but rather have to execute transactions in their chronological order. This can reduce the mad race to raise fees to speed up the confirmation of transactions.

That you say is bullshit because everyone would send transactions with the minimum fee and instead of having hundreds of thousands of spam transactions on the blockchain we would have millions waiting to be executed, thus making it impractical. Besides, as the block reward would go down, mining would not be profitable for miners.

Why nonsense, my dear? Think about it if an economical fixed rate of fees was paid that would be profitable for miners and good for users at the same time.

This means that if a fixed percentage is set, for example $2-3 per transaction, it will be good for both parties, and in the future when the mining rewards decrease after each halving, this percentage can be increased to be profitable for the miners to continue their work.

thecodebear

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Quote from: itsmyfirstaccount on December 22, 2023, 07:36:55 PM

About 20+ days ago ,I sent a transaction with 5000sats fee.

20+ !

It hasn’t been confirmed yet!

Ok to pay more ,confirmed faster.

But isn’t it ok for pay less confirm slower?

The miners are too centralized,and a lot of dust trans was made every day.

From A to A with high fee rate! Why does this transaction exist?

I don’t think a normal man would make such a nonsense transaction.

Not sure why you think this has anything to do with decentralization or lack their of. Seems like you don't understand what decentralized means.

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There may be transactions that may seem absurd or pointless to you. Unfortunately, they, too, have as much right to use the network as you. The network is open for all to use. You pay the necessary fee, you can have your transaction processed. So, while many of us may think that one transaction is more important than another, what can we do? An actual Bitcoin payment may seem more important than sending a monkey jpeg, but if it pays a low fee in a congested network, it could be purged from the mempool while the monkey jpeg is smoothly confirmed.

But this is isn't because Bitcoin lacks decentralization. The opposite may be true. If transactions are screened and some are approved while others are not, censored for sending garbage images, that should be akin to centralization.

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I think that this remains to be a big problem with the Bitcoin network much more so if there will be a high volume of transactions leading to congestion...this is always the biggest challenge for Bitcoin especially when compared to other platforms used in business like Visa or Mastercard. I am hoping that soon something can really be done with this hindrance and that we can all buy a cup of coffee using our BTC fast and efficiently. Now having said that, I don't agree that this problem is connected to the concern or question whether Bitcoin is decentralized or not.

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Quote from: itsmyfirstaccount on December 22, 2023, 07:36:55 PM

But isn’t it ok for pay less confirm slower?

The confirmation time is not proportional to fee. If the fee is below certain threshold, your transaction will probably never be confirmed. Like, if you put a 1 sat/vByte fee, it may never be confirmed if the fee will never be so low ever again, or if so much time will pass that the transaction will be removed from mempool by then.

oktana

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Unfortunately, you can do anything about it than cross your fingers. For you to understand how this works, imagine that we both go to meet a carpenter to make a furniture for us individually. You have $30 and I have $5. Whose request will he attend to first? Of course he’ll take yours first. And immediately he is done with the job, someone else brings $50 to do the same thing, he’ll quickly rush to get it done for the person (while mine is still pending) because of the amount they are willing to pay. This is exactly what is going on. People are paying a lot of money for transaction fees and the higher the transaction fee, the higher the priority of that transaction.

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Quote from: ZAINmalik75 on December 23, 2023, 02:36:39 PM

Yeah obviously this is true that the high fee of Bitcoin will be one of the factors that will be a hurdle in the path of Bitcoin Global adoption because if we look at the current senario there are a lot of people who don't know how to avoid the high transaction fee, despite facing difficulty in transactions due to the high fee. And when new people take Bitcoin as payment, the idea of this high fee shakes them a little and makes them think that only an average transaction is also based on a high fee. I read an article in which an tweet informed me that a person paid a $15 fee for a $100 transaction. I think this is so bad and discusting for buddy that he pays so big fee on only a small transaction. If we look at it this is quite expensive for a person.

Moreover, I think this is a big issue for Bitcoin enthusiasts and users that they pay too much high transaction fees for small transactions and @Hugblack your claim is right that the high fee will be a big problem for Bitcoin Global adoption in the future if they didn't seek any solution for him.

This was biggest issue faced by the bitcoin,but it was not because of the bitcoin.This was due to the exchange influence in the transaction fee of the bitcoin.As we know both the Binance and trust wallet headed by the same owner who keep the transaction fee of bitcoin high in both exchanges.So the small exchange also follows the same transaction fee,this leads to the transaction issue.The bitcoin decentralised behaviour was slightly reduced by this action by the owner of big exchanges.

Quote from: nakamura12 on December 23, 2023, 05:40:56 PM

If you don't want to pay high transaction fee then you should just wait for the mempool get back to normal. Right now, the mempool is congested and as you can see there are lots of transactions and because of that, those people who can afford to pay higher transaction fee wouldn't mind to pay it just to make their transaction get confirmed faster. This is what I do when the fee gets higher and just have to wait before the transaction fee gets lower.

This should be understood by the bitcoin traders,when ever the price of the bitcoin was increased.The transaction fee for the bitcoin also increased by the owner of the exchanges,but the trader should be responsible and don’t do the transaction of bitcoin at this time to avoid of losing the bitcoin.

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Miners don't set the fees but it is the network itself charging us with that because of the demand and with such, the network becomes clogged. What you should blame are these shitcoins that are made as BRC20's.

Quote from: nakamura12 on December 23, 2023, 05:40:56 PM

If you don't want to pay high transaction fee then you should just wait for the mempool get back to normal. Right now, the mempool is congested and as you can see there are lots of transactions and because of that, those people who can afford to pay higher transaction fee wouldn't mind to pay it just to make their transaction get confirmed faster. This is what I do when the fee gets higher and just have to wait before the transaction fee gets lower.

Yeah, there is no other trick than that but to wait until the mempool doesn't charge with unusual fees. It's easy to do that like a days ago we're seeing $20-$30 fees equivalent in Bitcoin per transaction for high priority and now we see it equivalent in $6 so despite that there's a huge slash. We still consider that as high fee but if you're wanting to transact now, you gotta be paying that fee and it's now considered low. That's what we need to accept these days but I still believe that we shall see the fees go back to its former cents per low, medium and high priority.

nakamura12

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If you don't want to pay high transaction fee then you should just wait for the mempool get back to normal. Right now, the mempool is congested and as you can see there are lots of transactions and because of that, those people who can afford to pay higher transaction fee wouldn't mind to pay it just to make their transaction get confirmed faster. This is what I do when the fee gets higher and just have to wait before the transaction fee gets lower.

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Quote from: itsmyfirstaccount on December 22, 2023, 07:36:55 PM

About 20+ days ago ,I sent a transaction with 5000sats fee.

20+ !

It hasn’t been confirmed yet!

Ok to pay more ,confirmed faster.

But isn’t it ok for pay less confirm slower?

The miners are too centralized,and a lot of dust trans was made every day.

From A to A with high fee rate! Why does this transaction exist?

I don’t think a normal man would make such a nonsense transaction.

Here are two sources I suggest you to read and then you will get an understanding of how the fees work. As has been mentioned here a couple of times, decentralization (or the lack of it) is not the problem here. At least not in the general sense.

Understand how transaction fees work and how the size of your transaction is calculated.

See the real-time price per byte.

If you are in the middle of congestion in a highway, many things and people could be blamed, but solving the problem sometimes has a very complex set of problems to be solved first! Wink

Making the highway bigger perhaps means chopping some woods or using some meadows that are vital for agriculture. It is not an easy endeavor, but I agree that some development has to be done and I am sure it will.

Topic: I don’t think bitcoin is now decentralized - page 2. (Read 522 times)