I just made my first Bitcoin ATM withdrawal... 3BTC from my printer.

Gyrsur

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Quote from: Tril on August 13, 2012, 09:59:47 AM

Quote from: rebuilder on August 12, 2012, 05:42:47 PM

Quote from: Gyrsur on August 12, 2012, 03:50:50 PM

EDIT3: there may be a need for a trusted third party which prints bills for bitcoins. you send this party your amount via transaction. they print the bill with a private key which is not allowed for transactions and send the bill to you. if you want to convert "papercoins" into bitcoins you have to send the bills to the trusted third party and they will send you the amount via transaction. divide and rule

--end--

Like an exchange? It's a little more complicated than you outline, but I take my paper money to this place called "a bank", they convert the paper into bits for me, which I wire over to an exchange of my choice and they let me convert it to BTC. The process works in reverse too, converting Bitcoins to third party paper money.

If you need a trusted third party, Open-Transactions already has the protocol and implementation for what you're discussing in one of its modes. See this link to decide which mode. The O-T server is the trusted third party or bank. It's not the same as bitcoin, but you can issue new currencies and trade bitcoins for them. You can certainly print it on paper.

https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Instruments

videos thread- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/open-transactions-videos-automated-escrow-93086

very interesting! thanks!

Tril

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Quote from: rebuilder on August 12, 2012, 05:42:47 PM

Quote from: Gyrsur on August 12, 2012, 03:50:50 PM

EDIT3: there may be a need for a trusted third party which prints bills for bitcoins. you send this party your amount via transaction. they print the bill with a private key which is not allowed for transactions and send the bill to you. if you want to convert "papercoins" into bitcoins you have to send the bills to the trusted third party and they will send you the amount via transaction. divide and rule

--end--

Like an exchange? It's a little more complicated than you outline, but I take my paper money to this place called "a bank", they convert the paper into bits for me, which I wire over to an exchange of my choice and they let me convert it to BTC. The process works in reverse too, converting Bitcoins to third party paper money.

If you need a trusted third party, Open-Transactions already has the protocol and implementation for what you're discussing in one of its modes. See this link to decide which mode. The O-T server is the trusted third party or bank. It's not the same as bitcoin, but you can issue new currencies and trade bitcoins for them. You can certainly print it on paper.

https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Instruments

videos thread- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/open-transactions-videos-automated-escrow-93086

jago25_98

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Quote

So to scan it you'd need a mobile phone, what's the benefit of having paper at all then? I'm trying to think of uses for this and it seems there's very limited and specific scenarios it'd be useful.

I guess because people might finally get it

PrintCoins

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Just created a web based way to print these bills as well as printcoin bills.

Take a look at it here:

http://tinyurl.com/bitbill (pdf link)

Note: Do not use this set of bills generated by this url. They are using private keys that will be available to all.

Go to http://print.printcoins.com to generate your own.

Gyrsur

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Quote from: cbeast on August 13, 2012, 01:26:48 AM

Quote from: Gyrsur on August 13, 2012, 12:49:33 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

epic epic stuff:)

could be!

really, i see a need for a second blockchain for bitcoin bills. an "authority" has to observe the transfer from bitcoins to "papercoins" and back somehow. the "authority" can also be distributed. the money supply has to match against each other between the two blockchains. at the moment "papercoins" would be behind with money supply but this doesn't matter because the need for "papercoins" is low but could be raised in the future. exchange rate is 1:1. if you "transfer" bitcoins into "papercoins" the bitcoin amount would be frozen like a lost wallet. the amount is now on the "paperbill". you can change it with trust together with other parties. if you want to transfer the amount online you have to change back "papercoins" into bitcoins 1:1. then the amount of money is available in the bitcoin network and the bill is destroyed. very similar like central banks deal with cash.

"Papercoins" as you put it are traded purely by trust unless you use a Bitcoin Checkbook which is treated like any bitcoin transaction.

goal should be to manage bitcoin bills completely offline until you will transfer the amount via bitcoin network. there should be no need for a receiver of bitcoin bills to convert it to bitcoins until he will transfer the amount to anywhere online. concept of Bitcoin Checkbook has the need to check the loaded amount online to trust into it.

EDIT: reason for the need to be completely offline for a while could be a natural disaster, a war or something other where an online access is not possible. in this case you can take your bitcoin bills with you at least.

EDIT2: intention is to fit this requirement

Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 02:33:32 PM

How would one verify an offline wallet, OFFLINE?

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: Gyrsur on August 13, 2012, 12:49:33 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

epic epic stuff:)

could be!

really, i see a need for a second blockchain for bitcoin bills. an "authority" has to observe the transfer from bitcoins to "papercoins" and back somehow. the "authority" can also be distributed. the money supply has to match against each other between the two blockchains. at the moment "papercoins" would be behind with money supply but this doesn't matter because the need for "papercoins" is low but could be raised in the future. exchange rate is 1:1. if you "transfer" bitcoins into "papercoins" the bitcoin amount would be frozen like a lost wallet. the amount is now on the "paperbill". you can change it with trust together with other parties. if you want to transfer the amount online you have to change back "papercoins" into bitcoins 1:1. then the amount of money is available in the bitcoin network and the bill is destroyed. very similar like central banks deal with cash.

"Papercoins" as you put it are traded purely by trust unless you use a Bitcoin Checkbook which is treated like any bitcoin transaction.

Gyrsur

legendary

Activity: 2856

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Quote from: ?? on ??

epic epic stuff:)

could be!

really, i see a need for a second blockchain for bitcoin bills. an "authority" has to observe the transfer from bitcoins to "papercoins" and back somehow. the "authority" can also be distributed. the money supply has to match against each other between the two blockchains. at the moment "papercoins" would be behind with money supply but this doesn't matter because the need for "papercoins" is low but could be raised in the future. exchange rate is 1:1. if you "transfer" bitcoins into "papercoins" the bitcoin amount would be frozen like a lost wallet. the amount is now on the "paperbill". you can change it with trust together with other parties. if you want to transfer the amount online you have to change back "papercoins" into bitcoins 1:1. then the amount of money is available in the bitcoin network and the bill is destroyed. very similar like central banks deal with cash.

pointbiz

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1ninja

Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 02:33:32 PM

How would one verify an offline wallet, OFFLINE?

You can verify that the Bitcoin address corresponds to the private key if you have a smart phone with qr code scanner and a saved version of bitaddress.org (you can download the zip from github).

As for the balance you need data from the block chain.

dentldir

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Quote from: casascius on August 12, 2012, 08:02:17 PM

I just posted an update to my Bitcoin Address Utility that allows you to create and decrypt password-protected private keys. The keys are roughly the same size as normal private keys, but they start with "6p".

The utility can now print paper wallets with AES-encrypted keys.

This has barely been tested, so don't use it with any serious amount of money (or, use a deterministic wallet so you can recover it unencrypted).

https://casascius.com/btcaddress.zip

Thanks so much for sharing this. Downloading now.

dentldir

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Quote from: pointbiz on August 12, 2012, 01:02:13 PM

This verification can be done with bitaddress.org on the Wallet Details tab.

I did see that. Reading the Javascript there is exactly how I got my head straight on this stuff.

That page is amazing. If anyone hasn't read the source, do yourself a favor and check it out.

dentldir

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Quote from: SgtSpike on August 12, 2012, 03:12:06 AM

But, verifying that coins do indeed exist at the corresponding public key DOES require access to the blockchain (or a trusted service).

Correct.

So when using these bills in transactions you have to have access to the block chain. And any transaction has to start with verifying the funds are there and immediately transferring the funds to another address. Offline confirmation can only tell you that the private key belongs to the address, which could have nothing in it.

A scammer would have to create some kind of race condition at the same time you do your verify and move to try and get the money before you do. (i.e. trigger an automated transfer of their own right before you do yours). So if they are pounding away on their cell phone as you are scanning the QR codes with your phone you know something is up. Although the trigger person could be a block away with binoculars waiting for some kind of signal as well. I'm sensing the plot to a really bad movie here but its fun to think about nonetheless.

Another angle on this is that paper makes a better archival medium than DVD-R or USB keys. So print up a BTC note, fund it, then deposit it in a safety deposit box.

casascius

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The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

I just posted an update to my Bitcoin Address Utility that allows you to create and decrypt password-protected private keys. The keys are roughly the same size as normal private keys, but they start with "6p".

The utility can now print paper wallets with AES-encrypted keys.

This has barely been tested, so don't use it with any serious amount of money (or, use a deterministic wallet so you can recover it unencrypted).

https://casascius.com/btcaddress.zip

adamstgBit

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Trusted Bitcoiner

Quote from: casascius on August 11, 2012, 08:48:57 AM

Quote from: adamstgBit on August 11, 2012, 01:44:58 AM

Quote from: casascius on August 08, 2012, 02:41:48 PM

Windows users can download my current version of the utility and print Bitcoin notes!

link?

Earlier in thread, should be:

https://casascius.com/btcaddress.zip

thanks

i dont see how to print out the bill

i see how to print out a list of paper wallets

unclemantis

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(:firstbits => "1mantis")

Is there a way to create a key that is visible and when combined with another key of sorts creates a valid private key? You know like on checks the amount is of money that is transferred from the account number on the bottom is only valid by so and so?

Thoughts?

Gyrsur

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Quote from: rebuilder on August 12, 2012, 05:42:47 PM

Quote from: Gyrsur on August 12, 2012, 03:50:50 PM

EDIT3: there may be a need for a trusted third party which prints bills for bitcoins. you send this party your amount via transaction. they print the bill with a private key which is not allowed for transactions and send the bill to you. if you want to convert "papercoins" into bitcoins you have to send the bills to the trusted third party and they will send you the amount via transaction. divide and rule

--end--

Like an exchange? It's a little more complicated than you outline, but I take my paper money to this place called "a bank", they convert the paper into bits for me, which I wire over to an exchange of my choice and they let me convert it to BTC. The process works in reverse too, converting Bitcoins to third party paper money.

yeah, but Bitcoin paper money with change rate 1:1, maybe a second blockchain only for "Papercoins" and merge mined like Namecoins

EDIT: the problem with bitcoin bills are the transactions, for bitcoin bills you don't need transactions, it is offline money like cash

rebuilder

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Quote from: Gyrsur on August 12, 2012, 03:50:50 PM

EDIT3: there may be a need for a trusted third party which prints bills for bitcoins. you send this party your amount via transaction. they print the bill with a private key which is not allowed for transactions and send the bill to you. if you want to convert "papercoins" into bitcoins you have to send the bills to the trusted third party and they will send you the amount via transaction. divide and rule

--end--

Like an exchange? It's a little more complicated than you outline, but I take my paper money to this place called "a bank", they convert the paper into bits for me, which I wire over to an exchange of my choice and they let me convert it to BTC. The process works in reverse too, converting Bitcoins to third party paper money.

Gyrsur

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Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 03:37:52 PM

Quote from: Gyrsur on August 12, 2012, 03:13:42 PM

Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 02:33:32 PM

How would one verify an offline wallet, OFFLINE?

not possible, the receiver has to check it online before accepting the bill and transfer the amount away. one possibility could be a trusted third party check the oflline wallet during print out of the bill but then the problem is after print out someone can use the private key and transfer the amount away. ~~a quick check would be to check if the public adress was used already in the past. if not the bill has the whole amount.~~ EDIT: nonsense, offline wallet has to be loaded therefore it was used already!

The selling point of paper money or coin money is that the value of the token is already established and knowledge that once the token exchanges owners the value of it transfers as well as 100 percent of the control. I do not think that having bitcoin paper money is going to act 100 percent like the precived notion of existing paper or metal monetary tokens.

My thoughts are that we need to revisit the intended use of the paper wallet for everyday transactions.

Thoughts?

Bitcoin 2.0 ??
there has to be exist special private keys only for offline wallets. only two transactions are allowed for them. 1. fund it 2. clear it

EDIT: in addition a trusted website check the public key if the offline wallet is funded and print out the bill and seal the bill with "amount approved by bla bla" ore something like that, but the receiver has to check it also if funded, so it is senseless

EDIT2: we need private keys where transactions are not allowed, then you can create a private key with a certain amount. for this you need a authority which you allowed to get a private key with a certain amount and to put a private keys amount to a private key allowed for transactions. but this could be tricky with no authorities!

EDIT3: there may be a need for a trusted third party which prints bills for bitcoins. you send this party your amount via transaction. they print the bill with a private key which is not allowed for transactions and send the bill to you. if you want to convert "papercoins" into bitcoins you have to send the bills to the trusted third party and they will send you the amount via transaction. divide and rule

--end--

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 03:37:52 PM

Quote from: Gyrsur on August 12, 2012, 03:13:42 PM

Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 02:33:32 PM

How would one verify an offline wallet, OFFLINE?

not possible, the receiver has to check it online before accepting the bill and transfer the amount away. one possibility could be a trusted third party check the oflline wallet during print out of the bill but then the problem is after print out someone can use the private key and transfer the amount away. ~~a quick check would be to check if the public adress was used already in the past. if not the bill has the whole amount.~~ EDIT: nonsense, offline wallet has to be loaded therefore it was used already!

The selling point of paper money or coin money is that the value of the token is already established and knowledge that once the token exchanges owners the value of it transfers as well as 100 percent of the control. I do not think that having bitcoin paper money is going to act 100 percent like the precived notion of existing paper or metal monetary tokens.

My thoughts are that we need to revisit the intended use of the paper wallet for everyday transactions.

Thoughts?

They are not intended to be used for transactions except maybe under special circumstance. They are nice looking offline wallets.

unclemantis

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Quote from: Gyrsur on August 12, 2012, 03:13:42 PM

Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 02:33:32 PM

How would one verify an offline wallet, OFFLINE?

not possible, the receiver has to check it online before accepting the bill and transfer the amount away. one possibility could be a trusted third party check the oflline wallet during print out of the bill but then the problem is after print out someone can use the private key and transfer the amount away. ~~a quick check would be to check if the public adress was used already in the past. if not the bill has the whole amount.~~ EDIT: nonsense, offline wallet has to be loaded therefore it was used already!

The selling point of paper money or coin money is that the value of the token is already established and knowledge that once the token exchanges owners the value of it transfers as well as 100 percent of the control. I do not think that having bitcoin paper money is going to act 100 percent like the precived notion of existing paper or metal monetary tokens.

My thoughts are that we need to revisit the intended use of the paper wallet for everyday transactions.

Thoughts?

Gyrsur

legendary

Activity: 2856

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Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206

Quote from: unclemantis on August 12, 2012, 02:33:32 PM

How would one verify an offline wallet, OFFLINE?

not possible, the receiver has to check it online before accepting the bill and transfer the amount away. one possibility could be a trusted third party check the oflline wallet during print out of the bill but then the problem is after print out someone can use the private key and transfer the amount away. ~~a quick check would be to check if the public adress was used already in the past. if not the bill has the whole amount.~~ EDIT: nonsense, offline wallet has to be loaded therefore it was used already!

Topic: I just made my first Bitcoin ATM withdrawal... 3BTC from my printer. (Read 14462 times)