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Topic: I just made my first Bitcoin ATM withdrawal... 3BTC from my printer. - page 7. (Read 14497 times)

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
These are skimmed much more easily than credit or debit cards - all you need is a camera, not even physical access. There is also the issue of change. Wasted paper, too. Any smartphone can display QR codes on demand, only when needed. Perhaps a nice chimera would be an e-paper note. Sounds too much like the "Bitcoin Card"? It does, but I think Casascius is more than qualified to look into similar solutions and to innovate.
If you have a smartphone, why go through the trouble of displaying a private key to begin with, instead of simply creating a Bitcoin transaction yourself and sending the funds to the vendor's address?

I like the paper throwaway bills (and these aren't the first ones we've seen).  They would work well for the purpose they are made for.  I think it was mentioned before in a different thread that the likelihood of a scammer being able to create a transaction to skim the funds even just 10 seconds after the vendor created their transaction would be less than 1%, assuming the scammer didn't hold a significant amount of hashing power.  Remember that the standard client will reject second transactions if a first has already been broadcast claiming the funds.  And if the scammer DID hold a significant amount of hashing power, what would they be doing with trying to scam 1 BTC here and there in in-person transactions?
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
These are skimmed much more easily than credit or debit cards - all you need is a camera, not even physical access. There is also the issue of change. Wasted paper, too. Any smartphone can display QR codes on demand, only when needed. Perhaps a nice chimera would be an e-paper note. Sounds too much like the "Bitcoin Card"? It does, but I think Casascius is more than qualified to look into similar solutions and to innovate.

They are meant to be disposable.  You would not "loan" these to somebody the same way you would loan a Federal Reserve note.  You would print them for your own use and keep them in your own physical wallet until you're ready to spend them.

Any smartphone can display QR codes on demand, but that demand takes 30-60 seconds to issue, assuming you have good wireless signal, and makes you unpopular if you're at the head of the lunch line and there's two dozen people behind you.  With the cash, you can hand it over, and *beep* be done, and your change goes back to your bill, or your BitPay keyfob, or is handed to you on receipt paper.  It's even faster than VISA.  (Assuming the merchant has the appropriate POS system... but believe me, this is coming!)
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
These are skimmed much more easily than credit or debit cards - all you need is a camera, not even physical access. There is also the issue of change. Wasted paper, too. Any smartphone can display QR codes on demand, only when needed. Perhaps a nice chimera would be an e-paper note. Sounds too much like the "Bitcoin Card"? It does, but I think Casascius is more than qualified to look into similar solutions and to innovate.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
1 and 3 can't work, as 1 would leave control of the private key with the vendor. 3 defeats the purpose of having a denomination on the note.

1 is likely to work more for social reasons, not technical reasons.  Sure, the vendor could swipe you for 0.23 BTC, if they want to leave a bad taste in your mouth.  They could also double-charge your VISA today, but by and large they don't.  Now, you do want to watch out for dishonest clerks, because they might have less of a stake and would be more interested in scamming you.  But the same way people know to do due diligence now to protect themselves from hacks of online wallets, so can people learn to avoid getting scammed by clerks (e.g. don't let the clerk snap photos of your change paper, or use method #2 or #3 whenever possible).

3, given the notes are meant to be disposable, simply crossing out the denomination and writing a new one isn't all that outrageous.  Or putting a small tear in the note to signal it has been partially spent.  Not all notes have to be printed pre-denominated.  Notice on my sample notes I simply hand-wrote 1 BTC on them and I don't consider this a terrible flaw.

I personally LOVE this idea casascius!  I want to see BTC accepted in more physical stores/restaurants and I think this is the way to do it.  I like #1.  If you are concerned about the private key, just take your receipt to your table/car and scan it with your phone and move to your own address.
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
1 and 3 can't work, as 1 would leave control of the private key with the vendor. 3 defeats the purpose of having a denomination on the note.

1 is likely to work more for social reasons, not technical reasons.  Sure, the vendor could swipe you for 0.23 BTC, if they want to leave a bad taste in your mouth.  They could also double-charge your VISA today, but by and large they don't.  Now, you do want to watch out for dishonest clerks, because they might have less of a stake and would be more interested in scamming you.  But the same way people know to do due diligence now to protect themselves from hacks of online wallets, so can people learn to avoid getting scammed by clerks (e.g. don't let the clerk snap photos of your change paper, or use method #2 or #3 whenever possible).

3, given the notes are meant to be disposable, simply crossing out the denomination and writing a new one isn't all that outrageous.  Or putting a small tear in the note to signal it has been partially spent.  Not all notes have to be printed pre-denominated.  Notice on my sample notes I simply hand-wrote 1 BTC on them and I don't consider this a terrible flaw.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
This has been hashed and rehashed in the original thread.

The point of these are not to do the 'suitcase full of cash' transactions.  Just a few here and there, most likely in mircopayments with the price the way it is now.
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
1 and 3 can't work, as 1 would leave control of the private key with the vendor. 3 defeats the purpose of having a denomination on the note.
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
Excellent. Not a week ago, it occurred to me merchants aren't the ones who should have QR codes printed - people looking to spend BTC in the real world should print out small-denomination bills, and merchants just need a QR reader.

How is change handled? If I want to use such a bill to pay for something less than the sum held by the private key, is there a way for the merchant to easily return the change to another address I own, not linked to the private key printed on the bill?

yes it's very simple! you have to have BTC banknotes down to 1 Satoshi and give these banknotes back as the change...  Grin

I expect any POS system that read QR codes would offer to read another QR code (bitcoin address only) to determine where the change goes.  Practical options for returning change include:

1. If the merchant has a POS-style printer, they could simply issue your change as a new QR code on receipt paper.

2. You could carry around a little keyfob on your key chain (similar to what BitPay now offers) which returns your change back to somewhere like your computer at home.  That way you don't have to worry about valuable scraps of paper that might fade on you, and you always have an easy way to receive funds anytime.

3. Change could always be sent back to one of the bills you presented for payment, or to another bill you're already carrying.
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1520
Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206
soo fantastic!! imagine you can spend this as a gift...
This is my idea too... give them as gifts / talking points.

I am a nasty bastard though and I am thinking of putting a VALID UNTIL_______ field so if they don't get off their lazy dufs for 3 months after I give them I can get my BTC back!

then you have to copy the private key for yourself and should manage the expire date also yourselve to move the amount after this date away...

...but wait a minute! the private key on the banknote should be sealed somehow!!

and the paper has to be banknote paper, please! because of the feeling... Casascius are you able to manage this?

legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1520
Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206
Excellent. Not a week ago, it occurred to me merchants aren't the ones who should have QR codes printed - people looking to spend BTC in the real world should print out small-denomination bills, and merchants just need a QR reader.

How is change handled? If I want to use such a bill to pay for something less than the sum held by the private key, is there a way for the merchant to easily return the change to another address I own, not linked to the private key printed on the bill?

yes it's very simple! you have to have BTC banknotes down to 1 Satoshi and give these banknotes back as the change...  Grin
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
soo fantastic!! imagine you can spend this as a gift...
This is my idea too... give them as gifts / talking points.

I am a nasty bastard though and I am thinking of putting a VALID UNTIL_______ field so if they don't get off their lazy dufs for 3 months after I give them I can get my BTC back!
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1520
Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206
soo fantastic!! imagine you can spend this as a gift... amount of bitcoins should als appear on the BTC banknote... very exciting!! great work!! bitcoin up up up...
donator
Activity: 1464
Merit: 1047
I outlived my lifetime membership:)
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
One word - whatifsomeone(athirdparty)hadatelephotolenseasyouexchangednotes?

Then I'd be effed to the tune of 3 BTC.

Print 'em in small denominations.

It's worth pointing out that when you print these notes and hold them in the flesh, the QR codes are giant and far bigger than they need to be to be readable.  They would scan reliably at 1/9 the size.
legendary
Activity: 1937
Merit: 1001
very nice, would be cool if everybody could do that easily themselves.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Plz  to be giving us the codez?

Wink
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
(:firstbits => "1mantis")
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
I assume it's the private key that's under your finger. Without any additional security measures, how can one be sure that a paper coin is unspent?

The idea with these is that the receiver of a bill scans the private key, immediately moving the funds to another address. The bill can then be discarded.

So to scan it you'd need a mobile phone, what's the benefit of having paper at all then? I'm trying to think of uses for this and it seems there's very limited and specific scenarios it'd be useful.
sr. member
Activity: 311
Merit: 251
Bitcoin.se site owner
I assume it's the private key that's under your finger. Without any additional security measures, how can one be sure that a paper coin is unspent?

The idea with these is that the receiver of a bill scans the private key, immediately moving the funds to another address. The bill can then be discarded.
sr. member
Activity: 311
Merit: 251
Bitcoin.se site owner
For those who missed it, this is the original thread where the banknote was designed.
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