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Topic: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE - page 11. (Read 97654 times)

full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
Time and sales which do not disappear
would be the greatest usability tweak for the moment..
It's already on the way, should be deployed tonight.

The open interest is an essential param for the derivative mkt as well.
It must be broadcasted in the feed along with price, time and volume.
full member
Activity: 131
Merit: 100
such a system would fail as soon as voila gos up again...useless....
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 500
Decor in numeris
As for margin requirements, this is temporary, and it's going to be fixed properly soon.

Good.  We are still in turbulent waters after the last crash, so it is normal that margin requirements are still high - as long as it is a temporary measure, and not the "new normal".

Maybe you should have a "volatility index" and use the volatility during the last month or two to determine the maximal leverage :-)
hero member
Activity: 674
Merit: 500
Time and sales which do not disappear
would be the greatest usability tweak for the moment..

It's already on the way, should be deployed tonight. As for memory eating, I am not able to reproduce this bug on Google Chrome on Windows platform, however I heard other reports about people having similar problems. There are some suspicious places where that might happen, so we are going one-by-one to eliminate that, and make clientside javascript cleaner/shorter/better.

Thanks for your suggestions!
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
The platform left alone eats progressively all available system memory
little by little on chrome.. Starts low with 40 mb and leaking it higher and higher..

This is not the point. The market is nearly dead all the time.
The fut basis easily ranges between 15-45%. There's no proper marketmaking yet.
You should have set virtually zero fees at all till attracting enough traders so they could form the market..
In the oldskul corporate markets this is the job for the dedicated mmakers who are obliged "to hold" the market.
But for some reason i think this gotta be done by the free and properly designed market itself.

Since i started writing this post memory has leaked up to 170 mb..

The range is way too slim. Readjusting on clearing only?
Also please add the ability to place the order in the book
even if it's out of range and can not be executed right away.

Time and sales which do not disappear
would be the greatest usability tweak for the moment..

Btw experiments are always welcome.
hero member
Activity: 674
Merit: 500
And a final comment:  The leverage is getting a bit low.  I know that is part of a strategy of reducing counterparty risk, but the only way of eliminating that is removing leverage altogether, and that would make ICBIT uninteresting.  We are unfortunately moving in that direction.  I would rather have a slightly larger counterparty risk, and then be able to trade at 1:4 or 1:5.  I think that the combination of high fees and low leverage hurts the volume at icbit!

As for margin requirements, this is temporary, and it's going to be fixed properly soon.
To be fair, even with removed leverage, there are still some advantages over spot market (ability to short bitcoin rate, and, well, maybe a bit better trading interface, and slightly less lags). But as I said, it's not the direction where I would want ICBIT to move in.

About BUK3 clearing fees - that's an experiment, a way to see what our trading community actually wants. Some traders started criticizing us for high fees - so now there is a BUK3 with (amazingly) low fees for those who want to trade frequently. Those, who want to open long term positions, are welcome to use traditional futures contracts without clearing fee, but with higher trading fee.

So it's democracy in action: traders choose the best suitable tool for them Smiley

P.S. One minor update, the orderbook, now it displays a little better, and more compact. Work-in-progress, more usability features to come.
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 500
Decor in numeris
My personal suggestions for increased liquidity - rebate for adding liquidity (ie maker/taker)
That's how it was done on the bitfloor. The spread was virtually zero all the time. Very effective..
Such a maker/taker fee is similar to what Intersango has been doing - the fee three times higher if you take an offer in the order book instead of making a new one.  Bitfloor went even further and made the fee for market makers negative.

I must say I don't like the clearing fee of BUK3, even though it is small.  I hope that will not be a pattern for future use.

And a final comment:  The leverage is getting a bit low.  I know that is part of a strategy of reducing counterparty risk, but the only way of eliminating that is removing leverage altogether, and that would make ICBIT uninteresting.  We are unfortunately moving in that direction.  I would rather have a slightly larger counterparty risk, and then be able to trade at 1:4 or 1:5.  I think that the combination of high fees and low leverage hurts the volume at icbit!
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
0.0062 BTC at the current price of 140USD is 8,68% fee.
Actually it's about 10.4% in 30d considering contango. Time decaying thing.. Hmmm..

Actually, another issue is the scaling of the fee. How about charging a proportion of the BTC exposure? It would be in keeping with the spirit of the contract.
I guess it's never gonna happen. They are russian. I know how fucked up things can be when you are down there..

My personal suggestions for increased liquidity - rebate for adding liquidity (ie maker/taker)
That's how it was done on the bitfloor. The spread was virtually zero all the time. Very effective..
newbie
Activity: 50
Merit: 0
Actually, another issue is the scaling of the fee. How about charging a proportion of the BTC exposure? It would be in keeping with the spirit of the contract.
newbie
Activity: 50
Merit: 0
This new contract is pretty interesting. I've never seen such a clearing fee before.

My personal suggestions for increased liquidity - rebate for adding liquidity (ie maker/taker), and a larger tick size (maybe half a point). As it is, the spread is pretty wide, so bigger tick size isn't going to widen it. What it will do is aggregate liquidity on fewer levels and prevent gaming (penny jumping). There have been studies that show too small a tick size is actually bad for large traders, better for small traders, but on aggregate worse.

PS Xenius I would not market make in options without the futures contract or a much more active market for shorting. It is essential for hedging. And trust me, options needs a market maker because of the infrastructure requirements.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
"Challenge accepted"!

0.0001 BTC clearing fee per 1 contract (to fight buy-and-hold-till-expiration strategy).
Something new and interesting.
But why do you need "to fight" b&h at all?
This is an experimental contract which will allow us to see if there will be at least more intraday trading comparing to other contracts so we can come up with correct fee policy for the next contracts.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
P.S. Buying and holding previous contract would cost 0.003+0.003 BTC = 0.006 BTC. Buying and holding BUK3 for 30 days will be 0.0001*62 = 0.0062 BTC, so it's nearly the same for b&h strategy.
0.0062 BTC at the current price of 140USD is 8,68% fee.
1:2.5 leverage is not worth paying nearly 9% fee. It's increasingly more attractive to trade on Mt.Gox without leverage and with 1.2% fee or on other exchanges with even lower fees.
8.68% sounds scary, but you should also note that you are comparing 2 trades at Mt.Gox with 62 trades+clearings at ICBIT
Also there is a BUU3 contract that has 0.001 BTC fees (down to 0.0005 BTC if you have volume discount).
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
"Challenge accepted"!

0.0001 BTC clearing fee per 1 contract (to fight buy-and-hold-till-expiration strategy).
Something new and interesting.
But why do you need "to fight" b&h at all?
sr. member
Activity: 297
Merit: 250

P.S. Buying and holding previous contract would cost 0.003+0.003 BTC = 0.006 BTC. Buying and holding BUK3 for 30 days will be 0.0001*62 = 0.0062 BTC, so it's nearly the same for b&h strategy.


0.0062 BTC at the current price of 140USD is 8,68% fee.

1:2.5 leverage is not worth paying nearly 9% fee. It's increasingly more attractive to trade on Mt.Gox without leverage and with 1.2% fee or on other exchanges with even lower fees.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
What will the margin requirements be for BUK?
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
I wish you'd just tried a much lower-fee contract to see what happens, rather than complicating it in this way.
That would be just too simple.
hero member
Activity: 674
Merit: 500
Perhaps you should only charge the clearing fee to contracts not purchased/sold in that interval.
It's charged only for those contracts which are held through clearing. You're free to trade within a trading session as much as you like, if you end up with 0 contracts by the session end you are not charged clearing fees.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
Perhaps you should only charge the clearing fee to contracts not purchased/sold in that interval.
donator
Activity: 668
Merit: 500
I'd misunderstood the twice-daily clearing fee.  That still makes it seem expensive unfortunately.  I wish you'd just tried a much lower-fee contract to see what happens, rather than complicating it in this way.  It's not obvious what effect that will have; it's seems negative psychologically.
hero member
Activity: 674
Merit: 500
It means more liquidity, tighter spreads, and overall less expensive futures for everyone.
That's best achieved by deciding not to charge 6 times Gox's already steep charges.

"Challenge accepted"!

We just introduced a new, very experimental and short (one month) futures contract BUK3 (BTC/USD-05.13).

Features:
- 10 times lower trading fee! (subject to your usual volume discounts too)
- Expires 25th of March (so it trades roughly one month)
- 0.0001 BTC clearing fee per 1 contract (to fight buy-and-hold-till-expiration strategy). It's taken during each scheduled clearing (twice a day) if you have this futures in your balance tab by the moment clearing happens!

Let's see what this experiment shows. The first trading session has enhanced price limits and increased margin requirements. The first clearing will be free (no clearing fees will be deducted).
Hey now that's more like it!  Thanks for giving this a go, I'm very interested to see how this works out.  I hope and expect you'll pick up more speculative volume.

Wow the trading range is wide too.

I think you mean 25th May not March above.

Thanks, fixed, and also added a simple calculation that holding this contract for 30 days would end up with the same fee as to buy and hold a usual contract.
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