Topic: idea: Merit source could have a negative smerit balance (Read 516 times)

I don’t favour getting into debt, although the idea in the OP would be a debt against oneself, which seems a complication from the implementation point of view that may result in perpetuating a self-debtor status.

I don’t know how often that happens, and how frequently it may happen in the opposite situation (lots of available sMerits, but not enough posts/time to award them). One could conceptually device a means of transferring sMerits between Merit Sources (exclusively) without those transfers affecting the Merit counter of the recipient, giving way to a solution where both counter situations are approached (perhaps with limits in relation to the allocated amount). Still, this latter idea (enclose within this paragraph) seems like overly complicating the system (and the supervision of it).

How about the threshold of borrowable sMerits?

But even there is threshold for it, I don't think it is a good approach.

First, I could be wrong, but from my perspective and my understandings on how merit system works and the active operations of merit sources, sometimes good posters have to wait for days, weeks, or longer to see sMerits rewarded to their good posts. If a post is a good one, it might be missed today, next weeks, but at the end, someone will see it and merit it.

I know, merit sources don't have time to scan around the forum, to find good posts and merit them immediately. If they don't merit good posts instantly, they might forget because lack of bookmarking. It will cause some kind of unfairness for good posters with some of their good posts (not all, definitely).

Another disavantage of the suggestion is the ability to self-control meriting behaviours from merit sources who want to borrow sMerits before their smerit pool refilled. Naturally, when more sources are available, it will somewhat result in more easily meriting activities. That is what we have witnessed so far. Before the increases of 30-days smerit pool to all merit sources, some sources usually give away 1 sMerit to 1 good post, but now they easily to give away 2 or 4 sMerits to 1 good post. I don't say it is wrong but if the smerit pool increases 4 times, they will send 4-fold amount of sMerits to the same post, or different post with same level of post quality. In the long run, it will reduce the level of post-quality of merited posts, IMO.

I meant, one year ago, a good poster has to make more than 100 good posts and need at least 100 of those good ones to be merited with at least 1 merit per post to earn 100 merits. Now, they have to make around 50 good posts or 60 ones, and will be rewarded 100 merits, with 1 or 2 merits per post.  

The last one is good postes have to practice for their patience. They need to be as patient as possible, and focussing on their post quality, and contributions, patience will help them in the long journey.

According to your statistics, it seems that in overall you sent 287 smerits in last 120 days, roughly 72 smerit per month.
For more accurate report:
1st Month - 25 Smerit (From 27 Sep to 27 Oct).
2nd Month - 111 Smerit (From 30 Oct to 29 Nov).
3rd Month - 64 Smerit ( From 1 Dec to 28 Dec).
4th Month - 87 Smerit ( From 4 Jan till now).

From all of these you sent:
1 smerit to 189 user
2 smerit to 68
3 smerit to 14
4 smerit to 13
6 smerit to 2
9 smerit to 1

In October you were very inactive but you become hyperactive in November, then you get in normal shape. Debt isn't a solution, to my mind you have to either send more 1 smerti than 2 or send merits on higher quality posts (on more upper level). If you need to borrow smerits and hope you'll pay it later, then what about if forum sees increased number of quality posts than it was before? You'll need even more debt, so that's not a solution.

I hope not
Last time, theymos increased all sources with 175% of the sMerit they sent in the 6 months before the change. That was a big increase for active Merit sources, but at least it's applied manually.
A monthly 10% increase would quickly spiral out of control, I'd be looking at 10 times more source Merit to spend in 2 years.

I've been a source for 20-ish  months now, and my amount was increased several times. I've never been out of sMerit, and yet, it keeps going up. If sources are doing a good job, I assume theymos keeps an eye on their needs once in a while.

@theymos are there any plans to make an exponential increas on merits?

It looks like there are enough threads of sources having issues of running dry of merits, maybe you could 1.1x the number every time the balance is replenished (but 1.1x the used merits).

If you are constantly in sMerit debt, theymos can see this and consider increasing your source merit allowance. If you ask for a higher source merit allowance, the inability to go in debt means there is one less data point that would point to you actually spending the additional source merit. If you are constantly in merit debt and your allowance is not raised, that is an indication you should spend less merit per post you want to merit.

There's a thread started by LoyceV and it has already got enough support from the merit sources. Some of the merit sources used ro check that thread and merit oost if they think the post deserves. Everyone can report a post there- self-moderated] Report unmerited good posts to Merit Source
There is one more thread which I can't find out at the moment, where merit sources share merit to member who is lack of some merits for next rank up.

How about rather than "borrowing" merit, you "queue up" merit to be sent once you are given merit or sent your refill of the month?

This means that essentially, merit would be saved. (One could have a marker indicating how much merit is in 'lock' on the merit screen)

This is different from debt, since you're not creating new merit out of thin air.

I'm not in the habit of meriting other merit sources (if I know they are, of course) but I'm giving you a few so you can at least merit one of those posts you have in your head--and I think what you've proposed isn't a bad idea at all.  Usually I've had plenty of personal sMerits to spread around, but there have definitely been times when I've run out of source sMerits and once had to ask Theymos to up my allocation.  I know how frustrating it is when you see a good post that hasn't earned any merits and you're out.

As an aside, I'm off to a piss-poor start this year as far as handing out merits but I'm going to try to do a better job of it.  Like OP, I take the position of merit source seriously.  The system is important to the forum, and it's also important that good posts don't get overlooked.

I totally get your point, but perhaps the amount you can borrow could be a lot less than 100 sMerits.  If you're chronically borrowing that many, perhaps you need more to begin with--and I don't think Theymos would have a problem upping someone's allocation if it wasn't excessive.

I think that's not a good idea. And it can create more sufferings once than now you suffering. Suppose you borrowed 100 merits smerits, Then next month you get 200 smerits from theymos, So you need to give back the previous 100 merits. Now you have 100 merits. Now the question is if you can not cover you with 200 smerits then how you can cover you with only 100 smerits ?? Obviously You need to borrow again 200 smerits, right?[because you can not cover the previous month with 200 smerits] So now you have borrowed 200 merits. Next month You need to give back the 200 borrowed merits. So now you are out of smerits for the current full month. It will be running continuously but you can not payoff the borrowed merits.


Some solution that can help IMO,

1. Control yourself [You have to think that you have limited smerits don't unlimited]
2. Bookmarks the posts for future sendings
3. Always send merits to the highest quality posts.
4. Ask theymos to increase the monthly smerits limits.

Thanks all.

Just keep up working how you do.... I also believe in giving more as 1single merit for most occasions

Though when you feeling to low then either bookmark them as suchmoon said or lower merit for now, if you continue good work then probably on the next occasion your merit stash will be increased as well, I think it go's in steps a bit and you just gotta work with what you got...

Start complaining after a solid effective period of a few months merit sending as a source, not to fast complaining

For myself I think I can use one last boost as well in my supply, but first gonna work with what I got...

As a single source I do think having to much is also not easy ... so for my case I will be happy with a final boost next time when it happens

I have recently been awarded the Merit source status.
Well, that dramatically changed my merit spending habits, for more than obvious reasons, and having a decent inflows of merits from my posts, I also managed to spend more than my MS sMerits allowance.
I think one skill required by a Merit Source is finding the right balance and spending rhythm. I do not think there is a magic formula for everyone, as it really depends on individual preferences I cannot argue with: I think I prefer give a little to everyone, signaling better posts with more than my usual meriting size. Again, it is a personal choice.
I ran out of sMerits a couple of times during these 2 months, I saved a couple of posts for later, but I reckon it is a difficult task, and probably I didn't merit a few notable posts that had the bad luck of being published with the "wrong" timing.
I do agree on the fact that going into "sMerits debt" is a bad choice, as always debt is ("Bitcoin fixes that"), and I am confident that, if Theymos keep up with last sMerits adjustments methodology, in the long run everyone will have the "right" amount of merits to spend.

I want to share my opinion too

I recommend you to distribute small amounts in equal distribution. Some posts may deserve more, that's true. You can visit the deservers later.

I mark my liked ones, I list it and try to make people see it. Maybe you can do something like that.

Exactly. Negative merit would open the door for abuses.
Most probably not all merit sources are perfect and with good intentions. Keeping the restrictions will restrict them.
A merit source with bad intentions will get into negative big time, since there's no limit. And after the harm is done, undoing it would be a bigger job.

The conclusion was already said: learn to handle the sMerits you get and ask Theymos for bigger limits. When he will decide you merit them, I guess that he will grant you that.

Ain't a merit source but I want to share my opinion.

It would be fine if you reduce your sMerit sent out, 2 sMerit will be fine and it can generate 1 sMerit from the receiver.
@suchmoon was right, bookmark on it and back when you have refilled a sMerit again or send PM to another merit source to sent merit the thread that deserves to have merit.

I think it is good to create a thread just for merit sources discussion only and when someone post deserves to merit just ask other merit sources to merit a thread if this is useful if you think.

Also, @Jet Cash has a point. Probably you can't recover the debt merit that you ask. It will probably continue until there's nothing to refill because of the debt you have. It really needs to have an adjustment in spending sMerit and higher your standard.

Just my two sats.

Well it's just the nature of the board really. Merit is desperately needed by many, especially those who are trying to maximise their earning potential here, and it is quite hard to get for the average person, or at least a sufficient amount to rank up to the desired rank. It used to be people merely obsessed with rank but now to do that you need merit as well as time so it's extra difficult and that's why people are always on the hunt for it and there definitely seems to be a lack of it going around. To solve or at the very least curb this sort of merit begging/hunting, I still think we should allow people to purchase the benefits of higher ranks through more donator ranks ie Silver & Gold Member and so on. Silver Membership can come with the benefits of being a Full or Senior Member and Gold a Hero or something. You could even have premium ranks like Platinum or Lamborgini Member with additional benefits. That way rather than people just hunting for merits users can just pay the fee to bypass all that business. Give the money to charity if the forum doesn't need it and then and it's win-win in my opinion.

I think there is too much of an obsession with merit here. It has distorted the posting, as people try to make posts to earn merits. Maybe it is time to create bMerits which can only be awarded to posts about Bitcoin and the serious alts - no bounty promotions, scam coins, or general forum chat.

Ha. I was going to say you might end up with having no merits at all one month because of how much merit debt you've got into and you will just end up bankrupting yourself eventually. I think a better and simpler solution would be to ask theymos to take a look at your merit sendings and see if he will up your quota. If you're obviously doing a good job then I think your merit allowance should be made greater to reflect that. Maybe theymos can give some mods or globals the power to make merit sources or update the number of merits people can send because there probably is a lack of merit going round and if people are running out of merit who are using it wisely then that's a shame and not beneficial to the forum.

If you think you need more smerit, the best thing you can do is to ask theymos to increase your monthly smerit.
If you receive 200 smerit per month and you are allowed to have -100 smerit, it's like that you have received 100 extra smerit for the first month and from the second month, your monthly smerit is again 200. Because in the second month, you receive 200 smerit and your total smerit becomes 100 (200-100) and you can spend only 200 smerit.

Did you try to send message to theymos and ask for more merits?
I think you will also need to make some kind of selection and choose posts which deserve merits more.