If there was no fiat where will BTC base its value?

buxlover

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 01, 2016, 10:14:11 PM

I was thinking that every bitcoiner wants a world without fiat, only bitcoins. Ok, if there was no fiat whatsoever, then where do you think will bitcoin base its value? Will it be in gold? But how much?

How do we determine the real value measure of bitcoin in an economy that has been very dependent on fiat?

If there is no fiat currency, Bitcoin would have named as fiat currency and the paper currency would be evolved later and everyone will compare rate of paper currency to Bitcoin
Bitcoin price may compared with some physical product that may include gold, silver, grains, etc... We can't guess which one product will be compared with Bitcoin for Price.

Interesting thought, how did you come up with such imagination.

purebitco

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Quote from: HeroCat on August 24, 2016, 09:20:35 AM

Fiat currencies will be in use at least 100 years and more. There are many countries in the world, where computers are something exclusive, like India, Nepal etc. Plus there are also many people, who like to use fiat paper money, especially in Europe. And in fact BTC users are small group from all world people, who use money. Wink

i dont think so, it might be used for a while but in 100 years we will definitely have some kind of a crypto instead and the life will be way easier then

deisik

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Quote from: richardsNY on August 25, 2016, 07:35:40 PM

Quote from: deisik on August 25, 2016, 05:56:42 PM

And so what? This doesn't in the least imply that things obtain their value from it by any possible means. I am greatly amazed that someone can actually think so (that gold is the source of all value out there). Bitcoin right now is one of the best vehicles for speculation available for broad, mostly (financially) uneducated masses of general public. That's the primary source of Bitcoin value at the moment (coupled with its outstanding and sometimes devastating volatility)...

As you can see, gold has nothing to do with its value since these are Bitcoin intrinsic properties (namely, volatility and availability)

I didn't say that Gold is the source of all value right now. I was pointing that at the extreme scenario of when there is no fiat. That aside, you still didn't answer my question of what you think gives Bitcoin value right now.

I quote the relevant part of my post below (I simply don't understand how you could miss it). In short, it is availability (accessibility) and volatility of Bitcoin (two main sources that give Bitcoin value)

Quote

Bitcoin right now is one of the best vehicles for speculation available for broad, mostly (financially) uneducated masses of general public. That's the primary source of Bitcoin value at the moment (coupled with its outstanding and sometimes devastating volatility)

Did you expect something else?

Wind_FURY

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Ok, I have read some people answered that BTC would get its base value from gold if there was no fiat. So what does that mean? Will each satoshi be backed by a fixed amount of gold? Will it be the Gold Standard all over again.

Therefore again I will ask, "If there was no gold where will BTC base its value?"

Slark

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Do you guys realize that for 99% time of human race existence any kind of FIAT was unknown concept?
Humans were living in small groups, barter was the prime model of exchange goods.
For 97.000 years of human evolution annual gross per capita was no higher than $100.

Recent 250 years brought huge changes - Industrial revolution between 1760 and 1840 changed everything.
GPC rose to more than $200 and in recent years exploded to $6600 (world's average) GPC.

Do you honestly think that FIAT is that amazing now that we can't exist without it?

richardsNY

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Quote from: deisik on August 25, 2016, 05:56:42 PM

Quote from: richardsNY on August 25, 2016, 05:27:08 PM

Quote from: deisik on August 25, 2016, 03:12:52 PM

Quote from: richardsNY on August 24, 2016, 06:38:55 PM

Quote from: angaper on August 24, 2016, 04:35:46 PM

It is a good question. But taking into account that there are lots of different altcoins and bitcoin is the pioneer and the most valuable one, perhaps if fiat disappears bitcoin would become the main parameter to determine the value of all other altcoins.

I think you don't understand the question, or either you didn't explained it well enough. Very easy, fiat is no more, what makes Bitcoin valuable then? Simple, Gold will be the standard to give everything else (including Bitcoin) value. Gold is the back-up currency in the world.

If we reverse your logic, then we are prompted to ask the next question, namely, is it fiat that gives Bitcoin value? I guess the answer to this question is a decisive "no". Thereby, it is neither gold nor fiat that gives value to Bitcoin...

I would be greatly surprised to see anyone challenge that point

Gold has been used as currency for so many years, I would be seriously surprised if it wouldn't be the main thing everything in the world is tied to in such scenario. Let me ask you a question, what gives Bitcoin value as it is right now? The effort miners need to do in order to get 1 Bitcoin minted?

And so what? This doesn't in the least imply that things obtain their value from it by any possible means. I am greatly amazed that someone can actually think so (that gold is the source of all value out there). Bitcoin right now is one of the best vehicles for speculation available for broad, mostly (financially) uneducated masses of general public. That's the primary source of Bitcoin value at the moment (coupled with its outstanding and sometimes devastating volatility)...

As you can see, gold has nothing to do with its value since these are Bitcoin intrinsic properties (namely, volatility and availability)

I didn't say that Gold is the source of all value right now. I was pointing that at the extreme scenario of when there is no fiat. That aside, you still didn't answer my question of what you think gives Bitcoin value right now.

deisik

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Quote from: richardsNY on August 25, 2016, 05:27:08 PM

Quote from: deisik on August 25, 2016, 03:12:52 PM

Quote from: richardsNY on August 24, 2016, 06:38:55 PM

Quote from: angaper on August 24, 2016, 04:35:46 PM

It is a good question. But taking into account that there are lots of different altcoins and bitcoin is the pioneer and the most valuable one, perhaps if fiat disappears bitcoin would become the main parameter to determine the value of all other altcoins.

I think you don't understand the question, or either you didn't explained it well enough. Very easy, fiat is no more, what makes Bitcoin valuable then? Simple, Gold will be the standard to give everything else (including Bitcoin) value. Gold is the back-up currency in the world.

If we reverse your logic, then we are prompted to ask the next question, namely, is it fiat that gives Bitcoin value? I guess the answer to this question is a decisive "no". Thereby, it is neither gold nor fiat that gives value to Bitcoin...

I would be greatly surprised to see anyone challenge that point

Gold has been used as currency for so many years, I would be seriously surprised if it wouldn't be the main thing everything in the world is tied to in such scenario. Let me ask you a question, what gives Bitcoin value as it is right now? The effort miners need to do in order to get 1 Bitcoin minted?

And so what? This doesn't in the least imply that things obtain their value from it by any possible means. I am greatly amazed that someone can actually think so (that gold is the source of all value out there). Bitcoin right now is one of the best vehicles for speculation available for broad, mostly (financially) uneducated masses of general public. That's the primary source of Bitcoin value at the moment (coupled with its outstanding and sometimes devastating volatility)...

As you can see, gold has nothing to do with its value since these are Bitcoin intrinsic properties (namely, volatility and availability)

richardsNY

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Quote from: deisik on August 25, 2016, 03:12:52 PM

Quote from: richardsNY on August 24, 2016, 06:38:55 PM

Quote from: angaper on August 24, 2016, 04:35:46 PM

It is a good question. But taking into account that there are lots of different altcoins and bitcoin is the pioneer and the most valuable one, perhaps if fiat disappears bitcoin would become the main parameter to determine the value of all other altcoins.

I think you don't understand the question, or either you didn't explained it well enough. Very easy, fiat is no more, what makes Bitcoin valuable then? Simple, Gold will be the standard to give everything else (including Bitcoin) value. Gold is the back-up currency in the world.

If we reverse your logic, then we are prompted to ask the next question, namely, is it fiat that gives Bitcoin value? I guess the answer to this question is a decisive "no". Thereby, it is neither gold nor fiat that gives value to Bitcoin...

I would be greatly surprised to see anyone challenge that point

Gold has been used as currency for so many years, I would be seriously surprised if it wouldn't be the main thing everything in the world is tied to in such scenario. Let me ask you a question, what gives Bitcoin value as it is right now? The effort miners need to do in order to get 1 Bitcoin minted?

twerdefnce

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Quote from: HeroCat on August 24, 2016, 09:20:35 AM

Fiat currencies will be in use at least 100 years and more. There are many countries in the world, where computers are something exclusive, like India, Nepal etc. Plus there are also many people, who like to use fiat paper money, especially in Europe. And in fact BTC users are small group from all world people, who use money. Wink

i really dont think so in my opinion it might be around only for 20 years or so and not any more

deisik

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Quote from: richardsNY on August 24, 2016, 06:38:55 PM

Quote from: angaper on August 24, 2016, 04:35:46 PM

It is a good question. But taking into account that there are lots of different altcoins and bitcoin is the pioneer and the most valuable one, perhaps if fiat disappears bitcoin would become the main parameter to determine the value of all other altcoins.

I think you don't understand the question, or either you didn't explained it well enough. Very easy, fiat is no more, what makes Bitcoin valuable then? Simple, Gold will be the standard to give everything else (including Bitcoin) value. Gold is the back-up currency in the world.

If we reverse your logic, then we are prompted to ask the next question, namely, is it fiat that gives Bitcoin value? I guess the answer to this question is a decisive "no". Thereby, it is neither gold nor fiat that gives value to Bitcoin...

I would be greatly surprised to see anyone challenge that point

richardsNY

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Quote from: angaper on August 24, 2016, 04:35:46 PM

It is a good question. But taking into account that there are lots of different altcoins and bitcoin is the pioneer and the most valuable one, perhaps if fiat disappears bitcoin would become the main parameter to determine the value of all other altcoins.

I think you don't understand the question, or either you didn't explained it well enough. Very easy, fiat is no more, what makes Bitcoin valuable then? Simple, Gold will be the standard to give everything else (including Bitcoin) value. Gold is the back-up currency in the world.

angaper

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It is a good question. But taking into account that there are lots of different altcoins and bitcoin is the pioneer and the most valuable one, perhaps if fiat disappears bitcoin would become the main parameter to determine the value of all other altcoins.

severaldetails

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I think that a very big value of bitcoin is its acceptance on the internet and the infrastructure that was developed for it.
Bitcoin became a payment method in a lot of online shops, companys work with bitcoins, even some banks support it.
There is a real trust level that developed during the last years, and that is worth a lot.

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 01, 2016, 10:14:11 PM

I was thinking that every bitcoiner wants a world without fiat, only bitcoins. Ok, if there was no fiat whatsoever, then where do you think will bitcoin base its value? Will it be in gold? But how much?

How do we determine the real value measure of bitcoin in an economy that has been very dependent on fiat?

keep in mind that, Fiat is a currency and bitcoin is also a currency.
Now I want to ask that how you find the value of your fiat? do you need to find the value of your fiat each time? the answer is no. because fiat is your own currency and you base its value with the goods you buy with them and bitcoin is a new currency and not our local currency and we do not use it for buying in our local market that is why it is hard for us to find its value with the goods we buy so we compare it with our local fiat.

MingLee

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Quote from: XERES on August 24, 2016, 12:59:42 PM

Quote from: BAGOBO on August 03, 2016, 05:40:36 AM

If there's no fiat, people will back to use goods for trading

Let say that you have 1 cow that has $ 300 value
if 1 BTC = $ 600 so 1 BTC can be trade for 2 cows

This idea...so we back to 100 years from now like barter but in this case we still use money, digital currency Bitcoins. Also if there is no fiat maybe BTC will dead? but if it will be based on gold is also good idea well yes Bitcoin still dependent on fiat right now, but maybe if Satoshi and Bitcoin Developer back to make its own coin based on gold Bitcoin can out from this zone *dependent on fiat*.

Bitcoin wouldn't be dead from a lack fo fiat, but it would definitely require having been a thing before fiat currencies went and fully gripped the world. While it is possible to make it so that Bitcoin can have a defined value and be pegged to the value of specific commodities, it is still current bound by the USD/BTC trading value.

XERES

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Quote from: BAGOBO on August 03, 2016, 05:40:36 AM

If there's no fiat, people will back to use goods for trading

Let say that you have 1 cow that has $ 300 value
if 1 BTC = $ 600 so 1 BTC can be trade for 2 cows

This idea...so we back to 100 years from now like barter but in this case we still use money, digital currency Bitcoins. Also if there is no fiat maybe BTC will dead? but if it will be based on gold is also good idea well yes Bitcoin still dependent on fiat right now, but maybe if Satoshi and Bitcoin Developer back to make its own coin based on gold Bitcoin can out from this zone *dependent on fiat*.

MingLee

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Quote from: satmas on August 24, 2016, 12:36:28 PM

Bitcoin price is unpredictable, anything could happen. Heck, precious metals can be used in place of fiat.

A large majority of commodities are infinitely more useful when you compare it to fiat money, and a barter system would still have more actual value and usefulness moved than the current fiat economy, however in a more inefficient manner. Anything that fiat money can be used to buy is more valuable than the fiat money itself, in a technical sense.

satmas

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Bitcoin price is unpredictable, anything could happen. Heck, precious metals can be used in place of fiat.

mobnepal

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Quote from: HeroCat on August 24, 2016, 09:20:35 AM

Fiat currencies will be in use at least 100 years and more. There are many countries in the world, where computers are something exclusive, like India, Nepal etc. Plus there are also many people, who like to use fiat paper money, especially in Europe. And in fact BTC users are small group from all world people, who use money. Wink

I am from Nepal and what you said is quite true, here people still fear to use online banking system so they first goto ATM and withdraw fund and deposit it to other persons bank account or meet them and give them cash. Instead of this they can easily use their online banking system to send fund directly to others bank account. And even we have local payment method, but lots of people even don't know what hell is payment gateway. So it will be really hard to increase adoption over bitcoin and i am quite sure there are many other country where situation is just like here.

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Quote from: yayayo on August 24, 2016, 07:22:33 AM

With Bitcoin, we experience the return of sound money, without the drawbacks that physical full embodied money has in terms of obtaining enough precious metals to mint it. The practically unlimited divisibility of Bitcoin makes it possible to always have enough currency units to run the economy without compromising the value of the monetary units

The infinite divisibility of Bitcoin is essentially the same as the unrestricted fiat supply in regards to its effects on wealth inequality and the exacerbation of this inequality. Alternately stated, it empowers the rich to get yet richer and gain more wealth by making the poor yet poorer. In fact, Bitcoin does this even better than fiat...

Or would do if it were to become a mainstream currency like the US dollar

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