If you still trust MtGox read this story -- 700 EUR stolen! - page 2.

Korbman

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Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 08:39:28 PM

Right, but since all this data is available, they can trace it (remember, in your scenario, that they also have internal ids for transactions and tie them to users, and that is how it is resolvable). Surely they should charge a retrieval fee and return the money.

That may be true that they could probably trace it, but how would you propose "returning the money" when it's already sitting in another person's account?

WuLabsWuTecH

sr. member

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Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 08:39:28 PM

Right, but since all this data is available, they can trace it (remember, in your scenario, that they also have internal ids for transactions and tie them to users, and that is how it is resolvable). Surely they should charge a retrieval fee and return the money.

You are assuming the BTC are still in the account of the person who "owned" the address. And the internal ID would just show that a deposit came into the said address and that the proper user account was credited with the BTC. None of that will have any of your information in it.

glebm

newbie

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Quote from: JoelKatz on May 29, 2013, 08:34:48 PM

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:13:23 PM

Well, SD is probably assuming that money is coming from a wallet that you control--which is not a bad assumption. The alternative would be to require a return address somehow and creation of accounts and that's probably just a lot more trouble than it's worth. But yes, the hard part is proving that the money isn't someone else's. Gox is well within the realm of logic to assume that the BTC that was sent back to you from SD was a deposit to someone else's account.

Right. The point is that Gox did the right thing. You can argue endlessly over whether Bitcoin is broken because it doesn't provide a return mechanism, SD is broken because it acts as if Bitcoin did provide such a mechanism, SD is broken because it didn't provide adequate warnings, the user is at fault because they didn't pay attention to the clear warnings, and so on. But there is no way this is Gox's fault. Either SD didn't provide adequate warnings that they make unusual assumptions or the user didn't pay attention to adequate warnings. Gox's behavior here is completely normal and, most likely, they credited the deposit to another user.

Right, but since all this data is available, they can trace it (remember, in your scenario, that they also have internal ids for transactions and tie them to users, and that is how it is resolvable). Surely they should charge a retrieval fee and return the money.

eve

full member

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kind of scarry

JoelKatz

legendary

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:13:23 PM

Well, SD is probably assuming that money is coming from a wallet that you control--which is not a bad assumption. The alternative would be to require a return address somehow and creation of accounts and that's probably just a lot more trouble than it's worth. But yes, the hard part is proving that the money isn't someone else's. Gox is well within the realm of logic to assume that the BTC that was sent back to you from SD was a deposit to someone else's account.

Right. The point is that Gox did the right thing. You can argue endlessly over whether Bitcoin is broken because it doesn't provide a return mechanism, SD is broken because it acts as if Bitcoin did provide such a mechanism, SD is broken because it didn't provide adequate warnings, the user is at fault because they didn't pay attention to the clear warnings, and so on. But there is no way this is Gox's fault. Either SD didn't provide adequate warnings that they make unusual assumptions or the user didn't pay attention to adequate warnings. Gox's behavior here is completely normal and, most likely, they credited the deposit to another user because SD sent the deposit to some other user's deposit address.

There is no simple way Gox can make this work.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: JoelKatz on May 29, 2013, 08:07:18 PM

I have a deposit address at Mt. Gox. Say I send 10 BTC to that account. The 10 BTC will be sent to *my* Mt. Gox receiving address. Now, say you send 1 BTC to SD. If it uses some of my 10 BTC, which it might, then your transaction's sending address will be my transaction's receiving address. To Mt. Gox, it will look like I am depositing more Bitcoins.

Thanks Joel. That was a very clear explanation.

It unfortunate that the Mt. Gox reps were unable to come up with any explanation.

nottm28

hero member

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Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:21:27 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:12:34 PM

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:10:23 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:00:22 PM

The irony was clearly lost here - warning

I'm a graduate student who is in his 13th hour of cramming for finals next week. I might need a break cut to me...

And the headache might be due to the studying... lol

Break cut to you - good luck with the exams.

Thank you kind sir!

You are very welcome - I remember (vaguely) that stress.

nottm28

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Activity: 574

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Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 08:19:21 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:18:05 PM

Might be better to encourage people to 'learn' rather than forcing your 'teachings' upon them. Never more so when it comes to gambling and other addictions.

I will still "gamble", I will just not do it with MtGox anymore! Tongue

Good luck with that

WuLabsWuTecH

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 08:19:21 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:18:05 PM

Might be better to encourage people to 'learn' rather than forcing your 'teachings' upon them. Never more so when it comes to gambling and other addictions.

I will still "gamble", I will just not do it with MtGox anymore! Tongue

And regardless of me defending GOX today, I still don't use them and don't plan on ever trying to use them again--they have some terrible customer support in regards to how long it takes to get issues resolved! The one time I tried trading with them, over a month later and my account still was not all the way set up!

WuLabsWuTecH

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:18:05 PM

Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 08:15:48 PM

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:11:03 PM

If anything this would be small claims. Read: you aren't gonna see this money anytime soon.

You are right, then of course this is not about money, but this is about teaching MtGox proper manners! And for the lawyer, trying a BTC case (of which many will follow), doing a good deed, and doing their job.

Might be better to encourage people to 'learn' rather than forcing your 'teachings' upon them. Never more so when it comes to gambling and other addictions.

Hey it's only an addiction if you have a problem! And I don't have a problem!!! o_O

But yes, please for the love of God learn from this and learn how to use your own wallet and it's purposes vs what the wallets on exchanges are used for. And yes, you are a newbie (hence posting in this forum) so do take some time to read around to avoid the mistakes others have made. Hopefully others behind you will read this thread and will learn from your mistakes as well.

WuLabsWuTecH

sr. member

Activity: 252

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Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:12:34 PM

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:10:23 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:00:22 PM

The irony was clearly lost here - warning

I'm a graduate student who is in his 13th hour of cramming for finals next week. I might need a break cut to me...

And the headache might be due to the studying... lol

Break cut to you - good luck with the exams.

Thank you kind sir!

glebm

newbie

Activity: 17

Merit: 0

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:18:05 PM

Might be better to encourage people to 'learn' rather than forcing your 'teachings' upon them. Never more so when it comes to gambling and other addictions.

I will still "gamble", I will just not do it with MtGox anymore! Tongue

nottm28

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 08:15:48 PM

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:11:03 PM

If anything this would be small claims. Read: you aren't gonna see this money anytime soon.

You are right, then of course this is not about money, but this is about teaching MtGox proper manners! And for the lawyer, trying a BTC case (of which many will follow), doing a good deed, and doing their job.

Might be better to encourage people to 'learn' rather than forcing your 'teachings' upon them. Never more so when it comes to gambling and other addictions.

glebm

newbie

Activity: 17

Merit: 0

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:11:03 PM

If anything this would be small claims. Read: you aren't gonna see this money anytime soon.

You are right, then of course this is not about money, but this is about teaching MtGox proper manners! And for the lawyer, trying a BTC case (of which many will follow), doing a good deed, and doing their job.

WuLabsWuTecH

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: JoelKatz on May 29, 2013, 08:07:18 PM

Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 07:38:53 PM

Yes, but MtGox does log my send transaction, and does know about the received transaction from SatoshiDice. For each transaction they know about the exit point, the following entry point, and they can trace the final point at an MtGox address tied to an MtGox account.

Right, but the problem is that it traces to a MtGox account that is not yours. MtGox uses Bitcoin accounts to receive money. When they spend that money, it comes from their receiving addresses. So your payment went to someone else's receiving address.

I have a deposit address at Mt. Gox. Say I send 10 BTC to that account. The 10 BTC will be sent to *my* Mt. Gox receiving address. Now, say you send 1 BTC to SD. If it uses some of my 10 BTC, which it might, then your transaction's sending address will be my transaction's receiving address. To Mt. Gox, it will look like I am depositing more Bitcoins.

IMO, it is SD that is broken. It does not make sense to automatically send Bitcoins to an address just because it sent Bitcoins to you. There is no way to know that the recipient will bear any logical relationship to the actual sender.

Well, SD is probably assuming that money is coming from a wallet that you control--which is not a bad assumption. The alternative would be to require a return address somehow and creation of accounts and that's probably just a lot more trouble than it's worth. But yes, the hard part is proving that the money isn't someone else's. Gox is well within the realm of logic to assume that the BTC that was sent back to you from SD was a deposit to someone else's account.

nottm28

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 08:10:23 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:00:22 PM

The irony was clearly lost here - warning

I'm a graduate student who is in his 13th hour of cramming for finals next week. I might need a break cut to me...

And the headache might be due to the studying... lol

Break cut to you - good luck with the exams.

WuLabsWuTecH

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 08:06:00 PM

It doesn't matter whether BTC itself is regulated right now for the issue at hand. What matters is that MtGox is regulated.
Note that in the scenario where I go through the police, it is actually possible to prove everything (which is the main reason money laundering via bitcoin does not happen en masse yet), as long as the investigation gains access to MtGox data, which is what would happen in Germany, but before that I could try it in Japan.

Not that I will actually go to the police myself, I don't have time for that

Any lawyer interested to try a BitCoin case, do a good deed and make some cash?

If anything this would be small claims. Read: you aren't gonna see this money anytime soon.

WuLabsWuTecH

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Quote from: nottm28 on May 29, 2013, 08:00:22 PM

The irony was clearly lost here - warning

I'm a graduate student who is in his 13th hour of cramming for finals next week. I might need a break cut to me...

And the headache might be due to the studying... lol

JoelKatz

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1012

Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: glebm on May 29, 2013, 07:38:53 PM

Yes, but MtGox does log my send transaction, and does know about the received transaction from SatoshiDice. For each transaction they know about the exit point, the following entry point, and they can trace the final point at an MtGox address tied to an MtGox account.

Right, but the problem is that it traces to a MtGox account that is not yours. MtGox uses Bitcoin accounts to receive money. When they spend that money, it comes from their receiving addresses. So your payment went to someone else's receiving address.

I have a deposit address at Mt. Gox. Say I send 10 BTC to that account. The 10 BTC will be sent to *my* Mt. Gox receiving address. Now, say you send 1 BTC to SD. If it uses some of my 10 BTC, which it might, then your transaction's sending address will be my transaction's receiving address. To Mt. Gox, it will look like I am depositing more Bitcoins.

IMO, it is SD that is broken. It does not make sense to automatically send Bitcoins to an address just because it sent Bitcoins to you. There is no way to know that the recipient will bear any logical relationship to the actual sender.

glebm

newbie

Activity: 17

Merit: 0

Quote from: WuLabsWuTecH on May 29, 2013, 07:53:16 PM

Irrelevant: it only matters if it is regulated AT THE TIME of the issue arising.

It doesn't matter whether BTC itself is regulated right now for the issue at hand. What matters is that MtGox is regulated.
Note that in the scenario where I go through the police, it is actually possible to prove everything (which is the main reason money laundering via bitcoin does not happen en masse yet), as long as the investigation gains access to MtGox data, which is what would happen in Germany, but before that I could try it in Japan.

Not that I will actually go to the police myself, I don't have time for that

Any lawyer interested to try a BitCoin case, do a good deed and make some cash?

Topic: If you still trust MtGox read this story -- 700 EUR stolen! - page 2. (Read 3925 times)