Topic: If you still trust MtGox read this story -- 700 EUR stolen! - page 3. (Read 3925 times)

The irony was clearly lost here - warning

It's also on satoshidice's page.  Once again, do your due diligence beforehand.  It's still not GOX's fault.  And I hope by now you have set up your own ewallet or desktop wallet somewhere and aren't using gox as your personal wallet right?

I'm not usually one to bash others, but the amount of stupidity concentrated in one sentence here astounds me.

He won the bet.  The original bitcoin, if in fact it was from his account he clearly owned.  And wouldn't losing money that wasn't even yours in the first place be an incentive to gamble?  By  that definition, you could only win and not lose anything because you didn't own the principal...

that sentence made my head hurt.  I'll be back after getting an aspirin...

edit: head hurt so much that I made a lot of typos. Fixed now!

Ah, but the the "quite" part is in the eye of the first person that did not see it.
Please be advised, that MtGox only lets you know about this incompatibility if you happen to hover over one of the identical blue help icons on that page.

Yes, but if at the end of their investigation, they are unable to ascertain that you are owed funds (which is what it sounds like they are saying) then that's all they have to do internally (assuming japanese law is similar to us law--i claim to be an expert in neither, but I have taken quite a few law classes and had some experience in the field).  Your choices are to sue them in court, where you will have the burden of proof that the money is yours AND that MtGOX was negligent in crediting the money to someone else's account.  The first is going to be hard to do, the second IMHO is going to be impossible.  YOU made a mistake that resulted in a LOSS for YOU.  Depending on how long ago this happened, you may have a claim if you can figure out who the account holder of the other address is.  In most places, after you find something of value not to be yours, you are required to make a reasonable effort to locate it's owner.  (In most places this is done either by filing a police report or taking out an ad in the local paper though courts have ruled other methods to satisfy this requirement).  If after a certain period of time no one has stepped forward to claim the item, it becomes yours (it was abandoned).  THIS is what MtGOX is telling you to do in regards to the police report.  You misplaced something and by filing a report, you may be able to claim this item later if it shows up in another police department's system or some other database.  Once again, you will have to prove that the BTC actually belong to you (kind of like identifying a ring when you go to pick up a found item).  Will your local detectives put in a lot of work into finding something that amounts to $700?  Probably not, but it'll be your best shot.  Think of it as the equivalent of filing a report saying I left my ring on the top of my car in WalMart's parking lot and drove off and now I can't find it.


Irrelevant: it only matters if it is regulated AT THE TIME of the issue arising.

You lost the bet - you lost the money you never owned - don't gamble.

Sounds more to me like "700 EUR lost when gambler doesn't follow instructions."

Yes, but MtGox does log my send transaction, and does know about the received transaction from SatoshiDice. For each transaction they know about the exit point, the following entry point, and they can trace the final point at an MtGox address tied to an MtGox account.

MtGox, however is a real company and operates under Japanese law and international trade agreements. The company is still liable to the customer in more ways than they'd like to be, even if tries to set its own rules -- the law always takes priority. Your analogy is not quite the same, because bitcoin are a lot more traceable than that.


Can BitCoin stay unregulated for much longer? Money laundering won't stop by itself, as everyone chooses to avoid tax when the risk is low and the tax is high. Since it seems that somebody has already figured out how to artificially scatter transactions so that they effectively become untraceable, the are many ways to launder money with this...

A Bitcoin exchange can't work any other way. Otherwise, every single trade would have to be accompanied by a blockchain transaction to move the funds to "your" address.

Yeah, when reading through his emails to support both of these came to mind. I don't even have an account at Mt. Gox and yet I still knew they were not compatible.

You're starting down a slippery slope there.  Sure MtGOX has full access, but we have no idea whose account the money was credited to.  He may have traded it already or bought a pizza with it!  In Banking, transactions are reversible, but Bitcoin is built not to be.  You are requesting that MtGOX start acting like a bank and go into someone's account to retrieve the funds.  This is not a good road to go down.  I would agree that MTGOX should credit you had THEY been the ones to make a mistake--that is to say, had you transferred in BTC to your GOX account and they credited it to the wrong account.  I would agree that MTGOX should eat the cost there and credit you with your BTC that you rightfully deposited, but since they made no mistakes they should in no way be liable for your loss.  It comes back to the fact that you did not follow proper deposit procedures (only depositing to an address that is assigned to you).

Further, I don't actually know if it's provable that they BTC is rightfully yours.  A good analogy (I know it's not a great one) may be that you deposited money with Bank A, and later withdrew said money plus interest.  You stuck the cash in an envelope with no return address (or the return address of bank A, you were cheap and used one of their envelopes on the counter) and mailed it to Bank B.  In it, you indicated that you wanted the cash deposited to Account number 1235.  Unfortunately, your account number is 1234.  While it can be circumstantially shown that the amount deposited was the exact amount you withdrew from bank A 2 hours prior, it cannot be conclusively proven that is where the money came from.  Make sense?

Speaking of slippery slopes, BitCoin is about trying to get away from regulation and nanny states.  Why would an exchange start popping up messages warning people not to send money to certain addresses.  This once again starts down a steep slope.  Do they do it for all gambling sites?  What about doing it for known scam sites?  Where do you draw the line?  It's up to each user to do the due diligence for himself to figure out whether he wants to do business with any other user and this includes reading the warnings posted on both sites about compatibility issues.

CanadianGuy, GodfatherBond, escrow.ms and others who may feel like posting before reading: a company that behaves like this is not to be trusted!

bad news.

a fool and his money  <--->

Yeah it really sucks. All it would take them to prevent this from ever happening is one line of javascript, since SatoshiDice addresses are public and don't change (they also all start with 1dice).

I understand they must be new to this, but so far I've been told that they won't deal with my issue at all. I must be the only user who did not guess to hover over that one generic blue help icon on that page.  

I'm really sorry to hear this!

DoubleMyCoins.com is a newly opened site that does the same thing. There is a warning about only sending from a wallet that allows incoming transactions.

MtGox has a ton of issues to worry about, like security, lawsuits, regulations and more on top of trying to run their business. Please understand they have tens or more like hundreds of thousands of users, so it's a bit hard to give each issue priority

While it may be complicated or time consuming to retrieve it, they do not get to keep it. A regular business practice would be to charge a fee on retrieving. However, understand that they do not have the rights to my money just because I made a mistake like that!
 
WuLabsWuTecH, thank you for this comprehensive explanation. As I understand it though, there is one gotcha: MtGox must have full access to all accounts to operate, so they must also be able to transfer money from the account where it was erroneously deposited to back to my account (as long as that account is still solvent after such transfer).

700 eur stupidly wasted because the person obviously couldn't read. Would be a better title.

After inspecting the blockchain, I think I see the issue now.

The address that the funds were sent from is probably someone's temporary address they receive funds at for mtgox.  (Everytime you received BTC, MTGOX generates a new address for you.)  The reason I say this is that if you look at: https://blockchain.info/address/1LxNm2tWBGHKfUE9ypyu1sMsQFfizoFotj which is the address you claim to have tried to receive the funds at, that address is receiving funds from bitcoin faucets.  I doubt MTGOX goes onto bitcoin faucets and enters captchas as part of it's business strategy!

I'm guessing that MTGOX used someone's receive address to send BTC to satoshidice, and when it returned, it returned to someone else's account.  For all we know, he is a day trader that has such a high volume of movement that he wouldn't notice an extra 5 bitcoins in his account.  But Mt.Gox is right--they can't just give you funds out of someone else's account.  It's the equivalent of if you accidentally deposited money into someone else's dwolla or paypal or bank account.  You would have to go through the process to reverse the erroneous transaction (which even with dwolla or paypal or regular banks can take weeks to research and cost a bit of money).  Since BTC is irreversible, there really isn't any recourse you have at this point.

Once again--lesson learned: there were warnings everywhere and you chose to ignore them.  I bet this won't happen again to you anytime soon.