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Topic: If you're thinking buying mining hardware, read this first - page 9. (Read 92715 times)

member
Activity: 73
Merit: 10
Quote from: tomcollins
Seems like an even better deal for me.
I'll also make the same arrangement with Bitcoins.  If anyone wants to give me 10,000 bitcoins now, I'll be happy to give them 1 BTC every day for the rest of their lives.

Are you feeling generous today ?  Roll Eyes

Either that, or he knows a hit man who accepts Bitcoins. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1099
Merit: 1000
[quote author=tomcollins
Seems like an even better deal for me.
I'll also make the same arrangement with Bitcoins.  If anyone wants to give me 10,000 bitcoins now, I'll be happy to give them 1 BTC every day for the rest of their lives.
[/quote]

Are you feeling generous today ?  Roll Eyes
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
Give me $10,000.  I'll give you $1 a day.  Long term income FTW!

Really? 3.65% interest for life? That's not bad these days. Smiley


Normally when you get 3.65% interest, you get your original money back.  You don't actually get the money for 28 years.  Then you start making the interest.  I think I can grow $10,000 pretty high in 28 years, even paying $365 a year out of it.  By year 28, I'll have $16,818.  Not too shabby.  I have an interest only loan on $10,000.

But that's the miner logic.  Keep being a sucker at math.

I don't think we have 28 more years of the US Dollar, TBH...

Seems like an even better deal for me.

I'll also make the same arrangement with Bitcoins.  If anyone wants to give me 10,000 bitcoins now, I'll be happy to give them 1 BTC every day for the rest of their lives.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
I think I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this conversation. I guess I'm just one of those rare people that doesn't like to argue on the internet.

You all go on and have fun with your investing. I'll be screwing with my video card.
legendary
Activity: 1099
Merit: 1000
I'm a professional miner since the beginning if 2011.
Monthly ROI ranged from 8% to 35% in all that given period.

In the future ?
As all risk investment, nobody knows that answer.

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Give me $10,000.  I'll give you $1 a day.  Long term income FTW!

Really? 3.65% interest for life? That's not bad these days. Smiley


Normally when you get 3.65% interest, you get your original money back.  You don't actually get the money for 28 years.  Then you start making the interest.  I think I can grow $10,000 pretty high in 28 years, even paying $365 a year out of it.  By year 28, I'll have $16,818.  Not too shabby.  I have an interest only loan on $10,000.

But that's the miner logic.  Keep being a sucker at math.

I don't think we have 28 more years of the US Dollar, TBH...
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
Give me $10,000.  I'll give you $1 a day.  Long term income FTW!

Really? 3.65% interest for life? That's not bad these days. Smiley


Normally when you get 3.65% interest, you get your original money back.  You don't actually get the money for 28 years.  Then you start making the interest.  I think I can grow $10,000 pretty high in 28 years, even paying $365 a year out of it.  By year 28, I'll have $16,818.  Not too shabby.  I have an interest only loan on $10,000.

But that's the miner logic.  Keep being a sucker at math.

It's true. I see the math challenges people trying to convince themselves over and over again that their decision to mine was the best decision here on this forum. In fact I'm so tired of this misinformation that I've been trying to tell my own story in hope to sway this more in the middle. '

People need to know that bunch of insecure teens trying to convince their hardware investment was worth it to each other is not a sound investment advice. Not saying my advice is better in anyway, but my own situation does tell a different story to theirs that shows another side of the issue. Others who are trying to do the same are only getting cornered by them saying that we have our own interest. While the interest may overlap unintentionally, the fact remains true and numbers don't lie. 

And it's not that mining is a terrible idea or anything.  But it is not something to take lightly and not an instant gold mine.  It depends on a lot of factors, many of which are very difficult to predict.  It's just if you are going to dump a ton of money into something for profit, you probably should at least make an effort to see if it's your best approach.  But if you enjoy mining and consider it entertaining, then maybe that is enough to make up for the suboptimal approach.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Give me $10,000.  I'll give you $1 a day.  Long term income FTW!

Really? 3.65% interest for life? That's not bad these days. Smiley


Normally when you get 3.65% interest, you get your original money back.  You don't actually get the money for 28 years.  Then you start making the interest.  I think I can grow $10,000 pretty high in 28 years, even paying $365 a year out of it.  By year 28, I'll have $16,818.  Not too shabby.  I have an interest only loan on $10,000.

But that's the miner logic.  Keep being a sucker at math.

It's true. I see the math challenges people trying to convince themselves over and over again that their decision to mine was the best decision here on this forum. In fact I'm so tired of this misinformation that I've been trying to tell my own story in hope to sway this more in the middle. '

People need to know that bunch of insecure teens trying to convince their hardware investment was worth it to each other is not a sound investment advice. Not saying my advice is better in anyway, but my own situation does tell a different story to theirs that shows another side of the issue. Others who are trying to do the same are only getting cornered by them saying that we have our own interest. While the interest may overlap unintentionally, the fact remains true and numbers don't lie. 
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
Give me $10,000.  I'll give you $1 a day.  Long term income FTW!

Really? 3.65% interest for life? That's not bad these days. Smiley


Normally when you get 3.65% interest, you get your original money back.  You don't actually get the money for 28 years.  Then you start making the interest.  I think I can grow $10,000 pretty high in 28 years, even paying $365 a year out of it.  By year 28, I'll have $16,818.  Not too shabby.  I have an interest only loan on $10,000.

But that's the miner logic.  Keep being a sucker at math.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
Hey, I may have plugged the wrong device into the Kill-A-Watt, but I stand by my math. Smiley

At the end of the day, I guess I have to admit to doing this for fun. Because you're right, the gutsy move is to invest in the currency directly. But that would keep me up at night, whereas seeing bitcoins spontaneously form is like enjoying a really slow variation of roulette.


Why is spending money on hardware not keeping you up at night?  Because you physically have something?  If what you mine is worthless, you are screwed too, but you do have some hardware you can sell for something I suppose.  So just compare the residual value of the hardware (what you would pay for it if you had to resell it or just what you would use it for), and compare that difference.

The attitude seems to be more of "I want a new computer, and hopefully it pays for itself" more than slow roulette.
member
Activity: 73
Merit: 10
Give me $10,000.  I'll give you $1 a day.  Long term income FTW!

Really? 3.65% interest for life? That's not bad these days. Smiley
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
Just my own story. I bought my first bitcoin mining rig and got it mining on April 1st. 2x5970's, system cost me $1500. In April it made just under 500 bitcoins for me. I sold them when bitcoins hit $3.80 shortly before coinpal went down. I made enough money in one month to pay for the machine and the electricity it used. So yes, building a mining rig right now is still very profitable.

mtGox price on Apr 1- $.70
$1500/ .70 = 2142.86BTC

mtGox price now - $3.205

2142.86 * 3.205 = $6867

Total Profit: $5367.86

vs. Total Profit of $0 (your numbers).  Fantastic decision!

I'm not one for speculation. Give me a long term income any day.

Give me $10,000.  I'll give you $1 a day.  Long term income FTW!
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
Right, let's take a market and two extreme points in the past, than assume we buy at the exact bottom, and than sell at exact top. Moreover, the market moved like 600% between the extremes.

Than we compare this with any other investment on the planet and say fi.

What a bunch of rear mirror drivers.


If I bought BRK/A sometime in the past for 10$ I would be even smarter than you guys.


I've run this with projections including flat price, small growth, huge growth, drop in prices, complete collapse, etc...

You may come out ahead if the price of Bitcoins drops or stays even by mining rather than buying and holding.  That was about it, and it wasn't by a significant margins.

The mining guy cherry picked it to say he was right.  Sorry he was wrong.  And yes, the faster the price goes up, the worse the decision to mine is.

Nothing to do with rear view mirror.  My projections are going forward.  My guess is very very very few miners who are putting $2k+ into rigs even bother to try that, let alone are capable of it.
member
Activity: 73
Merit: 10
Hey, I may have plugged the wrong device into the Kill-A-Watt, but I stand by my math. Smiley

At the end of the day, I guess I have to admit to doing this for fun. Because you're right, the gutsy move is to invest in the currency directly. But that would keep me up at night, whereas seeing bitcoins spontaneously form is like enjoying a really slow variation of roulette.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
yung lean
Just my own story. I bought my first bitcoin mining rig and got it mining on April 1st. 2x5970's, system cost me $1500. In April it made just under 500 bitcoins for me. I sold them when bitcoins hit $3.80 shortly before coinpal went down. I made enough money in one month to pay for the machine and the electricity it used. So yes, building a mining rig right now is still very profitable.

mtGox price on Apr 1- $.70
$1500/ .70 = 2142.86BTC

mtGox price now - $3.205

2142.86 * 3.205 = $6867

Total Profit: $5367.86

vs. Total Profit of $0 (your numbers).  Fantastic decision!

I'm not one for speculation. Give me a long term income any day.
JJG
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 20
JJG, still when buying mining hardware an investor did not know that there will be 600% raise in bitcoins in a few weeks. From point of view risk/reward his choice was pretty reasonable (then). It is still rear view driving when you compare his profits with HUGELY UNBELIEVABLE 600% rise in a few weeks of a highly speculative market (bitcoin).

Considering that it is reasonable that the components of the rig could be sold for 80% of initial cost he only had 200-300$ at risk. People here compare it with much larger amount of money at risk in a much more volatile market for direct BTC investment. Risk/reward profiles of these two investments are rather very different. Less risk less reward is not something totally unexpected, is it?

I am not arguing with any side here, but the reasoning which is being employed in the argument by both sides is very very simplistic and with benefit of hindsight.

You saying that someone is about to make bad investment, but what if BTC exchange rate falls back to 0.70 tomorrow. It is not impossible. Which investment will be better rig or BTC?

I surely hope nobody takes anything said anywhere on this forum as an investment advise. Please nobody take anything I say as investment advise, because I am not qualified to give investment advise. I bet no posters on this thread are.

He said it took him 1 month to pay off his mining rig. If that 600% rise in BTC didn't occur, then it would have taken him 6 months just to break even on his mining rig. Actually more with rising difficulty and an additional 6+ months of electricity costs. Either way he was betting on BTC value going up, so your suggestion that it's unfair to factor that rise into this argument is baseless.

And like I said earlier, he made his decision over a month ago, which was an entirely different and much more forgiving mining environment. And he still would have been better off buying BTC directly. Now it's much harder to make mining profits if you're buying expensive computer parts.

Here's my position: Don't invest anything you're not 100% comfortable throwing away into the bitcoin ecosystem. I don't think anyone will argue with that. My secondary advice is to invest intelligently if you're going to do so, and take the rapidly rising difficulty into account.

Go back and read my original post. It includes a list of many of the small overheads, risks, and fees that prospective miners might not take into account. It also details why rising difficulty could easily make your mining rig worthless in short order. It's all valid, logical, factual information. It was meant to inform. But for some reason that doesn't stop everyone from thinking I'm here with nothing but evil intentions.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
and I cringe every time I see someone rushing out to pour money into dedicated mining rigs without understanding what rising difficulty means to their profits

Why? I guess that's the question I've been asking.

Why not? If you saw someone about to make a bad investment with bad information, wouldn't you say something? I'm not just going to sit here and watch the carnage.

I suppose I would.

I guess it's a touchy point for me. I haven't made the investment in hardware yet. I bought a video card (which I needed desperately...no one wants to see a 2.9 WEI score for Graphics) and I got a pretty good deal on it to boot, so I don't feel like I've "invested" in hardware yet. Even the tinkering I plan on doing (which, I'll admit, would be just that) probably won't set me back an awful lot.

I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from mining...but I would want them to know that they are not poised to be filthy rich from doing so...and it may even cost them in the long run.
JJG
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 20
and I cringe every time I see someone rushing out to pour money into dedicated mining rigs without understanding what rising difficulty means to their profits

Why? I guess that's the question I've been asking.

Why not? If you saw someone about to make a bad investment with bad information, wouldn't you say something? I'm not just going to sit here and watch the carnage.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
and I cringe every time I see someone rushing out to pour money into dedicated mining rigs without understanding what rising difficulty means to their profits

Why? I guess that's the question I've been asking.
JJG
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 20
Right, let's take a market and two extreme points in the past, than assume we buy at the exact bottom, and than sell at exact top. Moreover, the market moved like 600% between the extremes.

Than we compare this with any other investment on the planet and say fi.

What a bunch of rear mirror drivers.


If I bought BRK/A sometime in the past for 10$ I would be even smarter than you guys.


vladimir, I think you missed the point of the post.

tomcollins was showing that if he had bought BTC on the exact day he starting his mining rig, then sold the same BTC on the same day he cashed out his mining BTC, he would have made much more profit. tomcollins didn't pick those dates, mjsbuddha did.
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