India makes ownership of Bitcoin criminal offense - How to respond?

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: 7788bitcoin on March 15, 2021, 06:12:58 AM

So does that mean that the shitty government will come out with a bunch of centralized cryptocurrencies created as per your term invented (a mere copy using a open source code) Cheesy

. I have no idea about the internal politics but i understand that they ruling party is a right wing organization who are notorious for creating community violence and the minority are harassed.

What i cannot understand is that, are these official government publications about it publishing these or just rumors spreading in the social media as we are seeing these threads for months.

It's not just rumors. The finance minister (Nirmala Sitharaman) and the Minister of State for Finance and Corporate Affairs (Anurag Singh Thakur) have been releasing frequent statements related to the topic for the last 2-3 months. They have made it clear that they don't have any objection to the usage of "Blockchain", but they will not allow any "cryptocurrency" to operate within India. Also, I don't think that Reuters will publish anything unless it is completely verified.

7788bitcoin

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on March 15, 2021, 05:00:55 AM

A lot of people were hoping for a rethink from the part of the government, after the high-pitched social media campaign. But the government hasn't moved a bit and they are very adamant about the blanket ban on cryptocurrency. They are planning to ban all the cryptocurrencies that were invented outside India. It is very simple. They will ban established cryptocurrencies such as BTC, ETH, LTC and ADA, so that their cronies such as Ambani and Adani could come up with the "made in India" version of cryptocurrency.

So does that mean that the shitty government will come out with a bunch of centralized cryptocurrencies created as per your term invented (a mere copy using a open source code) Cheesy

. I have no idea about the internal politics but i understand that they ruling party is a right wing organization who are notorious for creating community violence and the minority are harassed.

What i cannot understand is that, are these official government publications about it publishing these or just rumors spreading in the social media as we are seeing these threads for months.

Vishnu.Reang

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Here is the latest news on this topic:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-cryptocurrency-ban-idUSKBN2B60R0

A lot of people were hoping for a rethink from the part of the government, after the high-pitched social media campaign. But the government hasn't moved a bit and they are very adamant about the blanket ban on cryptocurrency. They are planning to ban all the cryptocurrencies that were invented outside India. It is very simple. They will ban established cryptocurrencies such as BTC, ETH, LTC and ADA, so that their cronies such as Ambani and Adani could come up with the "made in India" version of cryptocurrency.

eaLiTy

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Quote from: Sithara007 on March 04, 2021, 01:34:35 AM

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Even with all the money power, it took them three years to get a ruling in their favor. Imagine what will be the case if similar incidents happen to some of the middle-class cryptocurrency investors. They won't be having enough resources to sustain the legal fight, and even if they have the resources, there is no guarantee that they will receive a favorable judgement in the end. Going against the state is not practical in India.

The difference is that a normal citizen will not take the risk to install a BTCitcoin kiosk fearing what happens if you are in a legal tangle, you will burn your resources and you will be spending most of your time fighting the authorities and there is no incentives in doing so but when an exchange owners installs a kiosk he does have the incentives and he might have taken the legal advice before installing them and it is not a secret that it will take years if you are caught in a court case.

Sithara007

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Quote from: eaLiTy on March 03, 2021, 06:56:01 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on March 02, 2021, 10:37:06 PM

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The guy who installed the kiosk spent some time in jail. What is the use if the case gets quashed by the court after one or two years? He faced a lot of harassment as his house was raided and his personal belongings (phones, laptops.etc) were taken away. This is the price Indians have to pay for trying to popularize technological innovation.

They were the owners of Unocoin exchange and they were out on bail but they faced harassment and for three years they need to run around to sort this out as their bank accounts were frozen and just last month they were exonerated. Since they had the financial background they could fight against these inappropriate lawsuit.

Even with all the money power, it took them three years to get a ruling in their favor. Imagine what will be the case if similar incidents happen to some of the middle-class cryptocurrency investors. They won't be having enough resources to sustain the legal fight, and even if they have the resources, there is no guarantee that they will receive a favorable judgement in the end. Going against the state is not practical in India.

lifeforcepools

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Hating bitcoin is a crime.

eaLiTy

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Quote from: Sithara007 on March 02, 2021, 10:37:06 PM

~
The guy who installed the kiosk spent some time in jail. What is the use if the case gets quashed by the court after one or two years? He faced a lot of harassment as his house was raided and his personal belongings (phones, laptops.etc) were taken away. This is the price Indians have to pay for trying to popularize technological innovation.

They were the owners of Unocoin exchange and they were out on bail but they faced harassment and for three years they need to run around to sort this out as their bank accounts were frozen and just last month they were exonerated. Since they had the financial background they could fight against these inappropriate lawsuit.

Quote from: Sithara007 on March 02, 2021, 10:37:06 PM

And it is not surprising that 99% of the Indian techies migrate to the United States at the first available opportunity. Just imagine how the Indian economy could have benefitted, if people like Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella had stayed in India. But it seems as if the government don't want these people.

Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella went abroad to do post graduation and majority who move out of the country go out to do their post graduation or Phd then stayed back and if they can successfully complete the course they will get placed in good companies. I bet if they stayed in India they will not be this successful but will be in a good position.

For the Indian economy to flourish you need to get rid of corruption and there is no protection for investors and you cannot expect any foreign investors building something in a volatile situation.

dhemasm

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on March 02, 2021, 09:15:59 AM

Operating without a license is risky in India, as the cops can arrest you and confiscate your equipment. Last time when someone tried to install a Bitcoin ATM in the city of Bangalore, he was arrested and not just the ATM, but also his mobile phones and laptops were confiscated by the cops. The individual mentioned here tried to argue with the cops saying that he had applied for a license, but the authorities refused to grant it. The cops refused to listen and put him in jail. So it is a bit tricky. You can't operate without a license. And at the same time, it is impossible to obtain the license.

Hmm, I think it's little bit tricky is he was installed the ATM on public place or on his private sector? (Home or his Estate?) If he was installing it on public i think it's normal but if he was installing on his private sector that means the case is quite complicated, I take an example on my country, Indonesia. We are freely to sell Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency as Digital Assets which is intended for commodity trades and not an Currency to replace the fiat.

Sithara007

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Quote from: eaLiTy on March 02, 2021, 05:52:36 PM

Since you are talking about Unocoin ATM situation, the case was squashed by the court recently even though the cops took a stern stance and arrested them but the lawyers were able to convince the judge that it is just a kiosk and not an ATM .

The guy who installed the kiosk spent some time in jail. What is the use if the case gets quashed by the court after one or two years? He faced a lot of harassment as his house was raided and his personal belongings (phones, laptops.etc) were taken away. This is the price Indians have to pay for trying to popularize technological innovation. And it is not surprising that 99% of the Indian techies migrate to the United States at the first available opportunity. Just imagine how the Indian economy could have benefitted, if people like Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella had stayed in India. But it seems as if the government don't want these people.

eaLiTy

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Quote from: Sithara007 on March 01, 2021, 10:40:10 PM

One possibility is that there may be a group of people who want to convert their unaccounted money in to Bitcoin. In such cases, they can go for mining. But now that possibility is also not there, since Bitcoin itself is illegal in India. So why should they convert their wealth from one illegal asset to another, that too at a loss?

BTCitcoin is not illegal in India, it is a misconception as there are many chatters about a complete ban and till now everything is fine. Running a big mining farm is not feasible and profitable in India let alone having any elaborate plans to convert unaccounted money to BTCitcoin when there are several other ways to do with fiat currency Cheesy

.

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on March 02, 2021, 09:15:59 AM

Operating without a license is risky in India, as the cops can arrest you and confiscate your equipment. Last time when someone tried to install a Bitcoin ATM in the city of Bangalore, he was arrested and not just the ATM, but also his mobile phones and laptops were confiscated by the cops. The individual mentioned here tried to argue with the cops saying that he had applied for a license, but the authorities refused to grant it. The cops refused to listen and put him in jail. So it is a bit tricky. You can't operate without a license. And at the same time, it is impossible to obtain the license.

Since you are talking about Unocoin ATM situation, the case was squashed by the court recently even though the cops took a stern stance and arrested them but the lawyers were able to convince the judge that it is just a kiosk and not an ATM .

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: dhemasm on March 02, 2021, 12:06:18 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on March 01, 2021, 10:40:10 PM

because it is not profitable. First of all, it is almost impossible to get the necessary licenses and permits to start such an operation

In indonesia there no need something like this, There is no need licenses or anything for that and i'm really curious about this one, What kind of licenses that needed to build an mining farm on india? Maybe you have some article or anything?

Operating without a license is risky in India, as the cops can arrest you and confiscate your equipment. Last time when someone tried to install a Bitcoin ATM in the city of Bangalore, he was arrested and not just the ATM, but also his mobile phones and laptops were confiscated by the cops. The individual mentioned here tried to argue with the cops saying that he had applied for a license, but the authorities refused to grant it. The cops refused to listen and put him in jail. So it is a bit tricky. You can't operate without a license. And at the same time, it is impossible to obtain the license.

btc78

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Quote from: ecnalubma on February 15, 2021, 12:58:39 PM

This India hating Bitcoin is already a classic issue now. What can we expect from this country, how many times do they ban Bitcoin or cryptocurrency?

Yup and kind of tiring already when we are keep on discussing same issue over and over again.
Why not just accept the fact that India will never accept Bitcoin that easy and not until the government sees how they will benefit and profit from this adoption.

Quote

People supporting crypto in India maybe quiet a few, they need right people in the government to stand for them and act as there voice. This FUD doesn’t work to the current market anymore, people are used to it already.

I don't think that People supporting crypto in india is Few when crypto is already a wide market in that country.

Maybe in time but not this soon.

dhemasm

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Quote from: Sithara007 on March 01, 2021, 10:40:10 PM

I have never heard about any large-scale Bitcoin mining activity in India

From my perspective It happens on the other third country too same with Indonesia, I suppose there are still some Mining Farms but not really big as the other farms on developed Country.

Quote from: Sithara007 on March 01, 2021, 10:40:10 PM

because it is not profitable. First of all, it is almost impossible to get the necessary licenses and permits to start such an operation

In indonesia there no need something like this, There is no need licenses or anything for that and i'm really curious about this one, What kind of licenses that needed to build an mining farm on india? Maybe you have some article or anything?

Quote from: Sithara007 on March 01, 2021, 10:40:10 PM

Bitcoin itself is illegal in India.

"Prohibit all Private Cryptocurrencies in India However allow to promotes it's technologies" I don't really understand it yet and I think the law still sounds a little ambiguous (?), Since it's still on Introduction & Consideration Stage maybe it still can change? I take an example from my country (Indonesia) Basically we are prohibited to use crypto for direct payment (Buying Goods, Services, etc) But we are allowed to use it as Digital Asset and need to convert it first to fiat before using it, Well maybe in the future india will consider this option too?

Sithara007

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Quote from: eaLiTy on March 01, 2021, 06:24:35 PM

Quote from: Vaskiy on March 01, 2021, 06:10:44 PM

These politicians will never think about the people involved with any kind of business. They go with a plan and execute it as planned. They never look for the suggestion or survey from the people who are the making use of it. In India there is nothing to worry about the ban of cryptocurrencies, because I came across an article stating about political influencers owning large mining farms. This means mining is being set similar as an industry, but none were aware of it.

This is the first time i am hearing about this story, from where you got this breaking story about political influencers owning large mining farms. I have not seen any huge mining farms in India even though i have seen smaller ones because the cost of setting up a big farm is huge and then to control the temperature inside the farm is a big task.

Waiting for hear what the government is planning to implement, either way i am not that worried as i will find any alternative options if they come up with stupid laws.

I agree with eaLiTy.

I have never heard about any large-scale Bitcoin mining activity in India, because it is not profitable. First of all, it is almost impossible to get the necessary licenses and permits to start such an operation, since Bitcoin falls in the "grey area". And then there are practical difficulties. During the summer time, temperatures can rise to as much as 45 degree Celsius and therefore additional cooling requirements are there. Electricity is more expensive when compared to the other countries and finally the mining hardware needs to be imported from China (by paying a steep excise duty). I don't know how the mining farms in India can compete with those in China and Russia, given these circumstances.

One possibility is that there may be a group of people who want to convert their unaccounted money in to Bitcoin. In such cases, they can go for mining. But now that possibility is also not there, since Bitcoin itself is illegal in India. So why should they convert their wealth from one illegal asset to another, that too at a loss?

eaLiTy

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Quote from: Vaskiy on March 01, 2021, 06:10:44 PM

These politicians will never think about the people involved with any kind of business. They go with a plan and execute it as planned. They never look for the suggestion or survey from the people who are the making use of it. In India there is nothing to worry about the ban of cryptocurrencies, because I came across an article stating about political influencers owning large mining farms. This means mining is being set similar as an industry, but none were aware of it.

This is the first time i am hearing about this story, from where you got this breaking story about political influencers owning large mining farms. I have not seen any huge mining farms in India even though i have seen smaller ones because the cost of setting up a big farm is huge and then to control the temperature inside the farm is a big task.

Waiting for hear what the government is planning to implement, either way i am not that worried as i will find any alternative options if they come up with stupid laws.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on March 01, 2021, 08:11:40 AM

Quote from: lifeforcepools on March 01, 2021, 07:27:06 AM

I hope they change their mind, at least the situation in the world will force them to do so.

Close to 15 million cryptocurrency users in India. The sheer numbers will make sure that the government can't ignore them. The ban proposal was first suggested by Subhash Chandra Garg, the then Finance Secretary in 2018. The finance minister just went ahead with his plan, without realizing that a ban could cause huge losses to the Indian investors and may result in a backlash against the ruling party. At least now the politicians have realized that they can't blindly trust these bureaucrats to take important policy decisions.

These politicians will never think about the people involved with any kind of business. They go with a plan and execute it as planned. They never look for the suggestion or survey from the people who are the making use of it. In India there is nothing to worry about the ban of cryptocurrencies, because I came across an article stating about political influencers owning large mining farms. This means mining is being set similar as an industry, but none were aware of it.

Clement Kaliyar

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on March 01, 2021, 11:48:16 AM

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Farmer protest was going on the right track until the Republic day. The public mood changed, after some of the protesters changed the national flag at Red Fort. Some say that supporters of the ruling party infiltrated the protests and did things like Red Fort raid and attack on policemen to devoid the farmers of public sympathy. Anyway, now it looks as if the support for the protests have waned.

You are not following the facts but still saying what the narrative created by the central government and the media they are holding, it was a planned operation and none of the farm leaders were in that protest but it was lead by a person belonging to the ruling party and even with that situation no one changed the Indian flag from the Red Fort, they hoisted the farm flag alongside and some of the media created a narrative that they changed the Indian flag which was debunked even by world media.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on March 01, 2021, 11:48:16 AM

Looking at the Indian political system, the ruling party is supported by how the system functions. They have their strongholds in a few states such as UP, Bihar, Gujarat, MP, Karnataka and Rajasthan. These 6 states account for almost 40% of the parliamentary seats and this means that they can ignore the other states and come to power solely by concentrating in this region.

Lets take a look at this situation, in Bihar they won 53 seats out of the total 253 seats and how they are ruling, money and how they are able to blackmail the opposition party members and force them to join BJP, even Meghalaya they have won 2 seats out of 60 seats and BJP is ruling and that can be said in Jammu Kashmir and Goa as well.

Lets see how the situation will unfold and i am hoping that the narrative of ban will be changed by the influencers.

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Quote from: Clement Kaliyar on March 01, 2021, 09:18:54 AM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on March 01, 2021, 06:17:08 AM

I am still hopeful that the finance minister will reject the bill in its present form and go for a regulatory bill similar to what the Russian parliament approved a few days back. All that said, I don't think that mass unrest is a viable option. During the last two years, there have been several incidents of mass unrest against proposed legislations (such as Article 370, farmers bill, CAA.etc). But none of them were fruitful.

For all the unlawful laws they introduced they will probably pay when it comes to the next elections, the farm bill protest is one of the biggest since the independence and look at the elections that took place in Punjab after that. The cryptocurrency community is not here to raise protest, the groups that includes the exchanges owners created an influence group to make them understand the situation and explain what a ban could do to the market and that is the only solution that can make these ignorant politicians understand the ground reality.

Farmer protest was going on the right track until the Republic day. The public mood changed, after some of the protesters changed the national flag at Red Fort. Some say that supporters of the ruling party infiltrated the protests and did things like Red Fort raid and attack on policemen to devoid the farmers of public sympathy. Anyway, now it looks as if the support for the protests have waned.

Looking at the Indian political system, the ruling party is supported by how the system functions. They have their strongholds in a few states such as UP, Bihar, Gujarat, MP, Karnataka and Rajasthan. These 6 states account for almost 40% of the parliamentary seats and this means that they can ignore the other states and come to power solely by concentrating in this region.

The situation is quite fluid now. I hope that the finance minister has now realized her mistake. Legalization and regulation will be mutually beneficial for both the government and the Bitcoin community in India. Let's see how it goes from here.

Clement Kaliyar

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on March 01, 2021, 06:17:08 AM

I am still hopeful that the finance minister will reject the bill in its present form and go for a regulatory bill similar to what the Russian parliament approved a few days back. All that said, I don't think that mass unrest is a viable option. During the last two years, there have been several incidents of mass unrest against proposed legislations (such as Article 370, farmers bill, CAA.etc). But none of them were fruitful.

For all the unlawful laws they introduced they will probably pay when it comes to the next elections, the farm bill protest is one of the biggest since the independence and look at the elections that took place in Punjab after that. The cryptocurrency community is not here to raise protest, the groups that includes the exchanges owners created an influence group to make them understand the situation and explain what a ban could do to the market and that is the only solution that can make these ignorant politicians understand the ground reality.

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: lifeforcepools on March 01, 2021, 07:27:06 AM

I hope they change their mind, at least the situation in the world will force them to do so.

Close to 15 million cryptocurrency users in India. The sheer numbers will make sure that the government can't ignore them. The ban proposal was first suggested by Subhash Chandra Garg, the then Finance Secretary in 2018. The finance minister just went ahead with his plan, without realizing that a ban could cause huge losses to the Indian investors and may result in a backlash against the ruling party. At least now the politicians have realized that they can't blindly trust these bureaucrats to take important policy decisions.

Topic: India makes ownership of Bitcoin criminal offense - How to respond? (Read 1481 times)