Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 22.

Rassah

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Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 01:28:24 AM

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 01:17:52 AM

Though, granted, since you guys still don't even have a concept of "person," or understanding on where rights actually come from or what foundation they are built on, it's no surprise you keep confusing things.

Oh. Okay. I'll keep that in mind while you continue to defend the rights of a person to maim animals.

See? Like I said, you have no idea what rights even are.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 01:26:22 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 01:09:29 AM

"Before you respond, I realize that you cannot imagine any alternatives to killing people in libertarian land for not abiding by your contracts. It's not your fault, it's the way you were brought up."

If you insist, I will do the hard thinking for you. Reputation. Shunning. No murder necessary.

Until you catch the guy, you don't know who he is. If you let him go (because you didn't catch him), he'll just move onto another territory. You might want to try catching him. How are you going to do that?

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 01:25:13 AM

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 01:22:04 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:44:41 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:40:01 AM

They've also been extraordinarily successful with regard to eradicating drugs, protecting the environment, curing disease, and bringing the world out of poverty...

In some cases, yes. Your idealized world has no track record at all with regard to the matters, to be honest. It's fun for you to speculate though.

Track record:
USA has very strict laws on underage drinking. Result? Binge drinking, alcohol poisoning, drinking just to get drunk, and general alcoholism issues.
Italy has practically no restrictions on alcohol for minors. Result? Drinking is something done socially and responsibly, getting drunk is considered embarassing and a sign of weakness or lack of control. Alcohol abuse is very rare.

Totally agree. And it doesn't change anything I said about animals, property rights, poaching, etc.

You said "no track record at all" for our "idealized world." I gave you a track record of an issue that is heavily regulated in this country, and an ideallized world without regulation of that issue for comparison. It didn't matter what the topic is, just that there ARE examples of libertarian ideals which have better results than your pro-regulation ideals.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 01:17:52 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:43:36 AM

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 12:38:34 AM

The animals are not accorded any rights any more than an owned couch is accorded any rights...

Well, in your idealized world, yes. But here in the real world, there are plenty of laws and regulations to ensure animals' safety, well being, survival, prevent abuse, etc. Not nearly enough, but as society matures, the trend is to increase the rights of animals, not decrease them. Read up on the subject. Your way of thinking is a step backwards.

Those are "laws" and "regulations," not rights. You can't give someone rights by law. You can only take them away.

You're right about the terminology. Cutting off shark fins and tossing the shark back into the water is quite definitely a taking the rights of the shark away.

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 01:17:52 AM

Though, granted, since you guys still don't even have a concept of "person," or understanding on where rights actually come from or what foundation they are built on, it's no surprise you keep confusing things.

Oh. Okay. I'll keep that in mind while you continue to defend the rights of a person to maim animals.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 01:09:29 AM

"Before you respond, I realize that you cannot imagine any alternatives to killing people in libertarian land for not abiding by your contracts. It's not your fault, it's the way you were brought up."

If you insist, I will do the hard thinking for you. Reputation. Shunning. No murder necessary.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 01:22:04 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:44:41 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:40:01 AM

They've also been extraordinarily successful with regard to eradicating drugs, protecting the environment, curing disease, and bringing the world out of poverty...

In some cases, yes. Your idealized world has no track record at all with regard to the matters, to be honest. It's fun for you to speculate though.

Track record:
USA has very strict laws on underage drinking. Result? Binge drinking, alcohol poisoning, drinking just to get drunk, and general alcoholism issues.
Italy has practically no restrictions on alcohol for minors. Result? Drinking is something done socially and responsibly, getting drunk is considered embarassing and a sign of weakness or lack of control. Alcohol abuse is very rare.

Totally agree. And it doesn't change anything I said about animals, property rights, poaching, etc.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:44:41 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:40:01 AM

They've also been extraordinarily successful with regard to eradicating drugs, protecting the environment, curing disease, and bringing the world out of poverty...

In some cases, yes. Your idealized world has no track record at all with regard to the matters, to be honest. It's fun for you to speculate though.

Track record:
USA has very strict laws on underage drinking. Result? Binge drinking, alcohol poisoning, drinking just to get drunk, and general alcoholism issues.
Italy has practically no restrictions on alcohol for minors. Result? Drinking is something done socially and responsibly, getting drunk is considered embarassing and a sign of weakness or lack of control. Alcohol abuse is very rare.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:43:36 AM

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 12:38:34 AM

The animals are not accorded any rights any more than an owned couch is accorded any rights...

Well, in your idealized world, yes. But here in the real world, there are plenty of laws and regulations to ensure animals' safety, well being, survival, prevent abuse, etc. Not nearly enough, but as society matures, the trend is to increase the rights of animals, not decrease them. Read up on the subject. Your way of thinking is a step backwards.

Those are "laws" and "regulations," not rights. You can't give someone rights by law. You can only take them away.

Though, granted, since you guys still don't even have a concept of "person," or understanding on where rights actually come from or what foundation they are built on, it's no surprise you keep confusing things.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 01:02:48 AM

I was referring to the institutionalized, "because you didn't pay a fine" type of murder. The kind you call justice.

I don't consider murder to be the penalty for shark finning. Nor do I consider auto fatalities to be the penalty for driving dangerously, but there are on occasion consequences to actions.

As for justice in libertarian land, you still have failed to acknowledge that in pursuit of justice regarding property rights violations, murder will happen as well. I suppose I could say something like the following to you, but I try not to be a hypocrite:

"Before you respond, I realize that you cannot imagine any alternatives to killing people in libertarian land for not abiding by your contracts. It's not your fault, it's the way you were brought up."

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

I was referring to the institutionalized, "because you didn't pay a fine" type of murder. The kind you call justice.

It's ok, I realize you cannot yet acknowledge this basic fact about your preferred system. Perhaps someday you can be honest wth yourself.

Before you respond, I realize that you cannot imagine any alternatives to killing people for not following your rules. It's not your fault, it's the society in which you were raised.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:47:26 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:46:06 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:38:12 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:32:38 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:22:37 AM

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

Yes. Can a shark or dog respect your rights? No, they don't know any better. I believe rights can only be afforded where reciprocal behavior is possible.

An arbitrary belief on your part.

Show me that your belief is less arbitrary.

At least mine does not justify murder.

Murder will not go away in your libertarian land. Disputes due to property rights will result in murder from time to time. Please don't tell me that you believe this to not be the case.

Your belief about rights is restrictive to Homo sapiens sapiens. Even if we accept this restriction (and there really is no need to do so), we can still show that destroying sharks for shark fins is a violation of human rights, for do not humans have the right to live in a world that is rich with life, diversity, and filled with productive and balanced ecosystems which will continue to sustain us?

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:46:06 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:38:12 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:32:38 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:22:37 AM

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

Yes. Can a shark or dog respect your rights? No, they don't know any better. I believe rights can only be afforded where reciprocal behavior is possible.

An arbitrary belief on your part.

Show me that your belief is less arbitrary.

At least mine does not justify murder.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:38:12 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:32:38 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:22:37 AM

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

Yes. Can a shark or dog respect your rights? No, they don't know any better. I believe rights can only be afforded where reciprocal behavior is possible.

An arbitrary belief on your part.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:40:01 AM

They've also been extraordinarily successful with regard to eradicating drugs, protecting the environment, curing disease, and bringing the world out of poverty...

In some cases, yes. Your idealized world has no track record at all with regard to the matters, to be honest. It's fun for you to speculate though.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 12:38:34 AM

The animals are not accorded any rights any more than an owned couch is accorded any rights...

Well, in your idealized world, yes. But here in the real world, there are plenty of laws and regulations to ensure animals' safety, well being, survival, prevent abuse, etc. Not nearly enough, but as society matures, the trend is to increase the rights of animals, not decrease them. Read up on the subject. Your way of thinking is a step backwards.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:34:39 AM

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 12:23:02 AM

So, have these measures, regulations, treaties, etc. of yours stopped shark finning? Drug trade? Illegal downloading?

Measures, regulations, etc. have been extraordinarily successful with regard to bringing back certain species from near extinction.

They've also been extraordinarily successful with regard to eradicating drugs, protecting the environment, curing disease, and bringing the world out of poverty...

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:32:38 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:22:37 AM

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

The animals are not accorded any rights any more than an owned couch is accorded any rights...

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:32:38 AM

Quote from: BitterTea on October 12, 2011, 12:22:37 AM

This has nothing to do with shark finning, unless someone already owns the sharks.

So an animal (a shark, dog, etc.) is accorded the right to different treatment depending on whether it is owned or not by the one mistreating the animal?

Yes. Can a shark or dog respect your rights? No, they don't know any better. I believe rights can only be afforded where reciprocal behavior is possible.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: FirstAscent on October 12, 2011, 12:34:39 AM

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 12:23:02 AM

So, have these measures, regulations, treaties, etc. of yours stopped shark finning? Drug trade? Illegal downloading?

Measures, regulations, etc. have been extraordinarily successful with regard to bringing back certain species from near extinction.

I guess that part is true

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Rassah on October 12, 2011, 12:23:02 AM

So, have these measures, regulations, treaties, etc. of yours stopped shark finning? Drug trade? Illegal downloading?

Measures, regulations, etc. have been extraordinarily successful with regard to bringing back certain species from near extinction.

Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 22. (Read 105875 times)