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Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 28. (Read 105875 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 11, 2011, 09:08:49 AM
..snip...

So would you.  The idea of slavery being immoral is relatively new and just as 1000 years ago, we would not have discussed air fares, we would also not have discussed the abolition of slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

I would have only out of ignorance. Once I had been pointed out that slaves have the same felings and wants as non-slaves, I.e. not been ignorant any more, I would not have supported slavery
...snip...

Sorry but you are kidding yourself.  Perfectly moral people like Moses, Jesus and the Buddha were fine with slavery.  Can you really argue that Jesus had no idea slaves had feelings?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 11, 2011, 08:55:48 AM

There have always been some that express the idea that slavery is immoral, just as there have always been some that express the idea that statism is immoral and intellectual property is immoral. You do realize also that the idea of intellectual property is only a couple of hundred years old, right?

Given that all religions allow slavery, I don't see where you get the notion that that there has always moral opposition to it.  Please substantiate.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 11, 2011, 08:48:40 AM
Not clear on something - how exactly does the enforcement of IP rights lead to slavery?

When grandma downloads 2,500 songs illegally, the RIAA breaks down her door, she is taken to court, and is fined $250,000. Since grandma obviously doesn't have that kind of cash, she is taken to jail instead, where she is forced to work off her "debt to society" by either picking up litter off the side of the roads, or by breaking rocks with sledgehammers.
Slavery.

Um no.  Its a civil action so there is no prospect of jail. 
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 03:07:28 AM
The justification is simple and has already been mentioned here many times. Large time consuming projects such as book writing, filmmaking, etc. require a lot of sacrifice up front, in the form of time, effort, and/or money, as well as paying your dues in learning how to write, make films, etc. There's risk involved there, and it deserves compensation.

What if nobody buys the work? That risk receives no compensation.

That is precisely why there is risk - that nobody will buy the work. Thus, the need for a way to ensure that if there actually is demand for the work, people will be obliged to pay for it, rather than helping themselves to it via a means which do not credit the creator.

You previously stated that the reason it is unacceptable for me to do whatever I want with a DVD is because I agreed to a "contract" by purchasing it. Have you abandoned this position? If not, then how do you reconcile that MoonShadow did not agree to a contract because I gave him a copy with all references to copyright and acceptable use stripped out?

Is this your idea of trying to win your argument? Why something is unacceptable is based on the justification, not the contract. A contract is to prevent what is unacceptable - not to justify why it is unacceptable. If you must resort to these contortions, then find someone else to bicker with.

You're going to have to admit, that even in your perfect libertarian world, there are going to be things that you can physically do, would physically like to do, but that you will refrain from doing because there are perceived consequences.

Sure, like murder, rape, and theft. Copying information is not an initiation of violence.

No, not just murder, rape and theft. In addition, you'll have to take care with what you do on your own property if it might have consequences on another's property. Also, I'm sure there will be plenty of things you'd like to do on other people's property, but prudently decide that you should not. Risks and desires will not go away in your libertarian world. As an example, you may very well want to go engage in photography and filmmaking from the top of the ridge on your neighbor's land, but perhaps he doesn't like you and is quite fond of his shotgun.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 11, 2011, 02:52:29 AM
The justification is simple and has already been mentioned here many times. Large time consuming projects such as book writing, filmmaking, etc. require a lot of sacrifice up front, in the form of time, effort, and/or money, as well as paying your dues in learning how to write, make films, etc. There's risk involved there, and it deserves compensation.

What if nobody buys the work? That risk receives no compensation.

You previously stated that the reason it is unacceptable for me to do whatever I want with a DVD is because I agreed to a "contract" by purchasing it. Have you abandoned this position? If not, then how do you reconcile that MoonShadow did not agree to a contract because I gave him a copy with all references to copyright and acceptable use stripped out?


You're going to have to admit, that even in your perfect libertarian world, there are going to be things that you can physically do, would physically like to do, but that you will refrain from doing because there are perceived consequences.

Sure, like murder, rape, and theft. Copying information is not an initiation of violence.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 02:49:31 AM
I didn't ask you the law, I asked you the justification behind the law. First you say it's because I "agree to a contract when I buy a DVD", then you have no answer so you fall back to "ask the court".

The justification is simple and has already been mentioned here many times. Large time consuming projects such as book writing, filmmaking, etc. require a lot of sacrifice up front, in the form of time, effort, and/or money, as well as paying your dues in learning how to write, make films, etc. There's risk involved there, and it deserves compensation.

Tell me this - why do you feel it is it such a horrific burden for you? By following those relatively simple rules, has it somehow rendered you into indentured servitude with a taskmaster behind you snapping a whip at your back?

Not literally, but not too far from that. By the mere act of participating in a computer network and sharing copied information, I am considered a criminal according to the law and can be legally kidnapped, or killed if I resist kidnapping. Seems pretty fucking bad to me.

Well, then, stop using the computer network. You're going to have to admit, that even in your perfect libertarian world, there are going to be things that you can physically do, would physically like to do, but that you will refrain from doing because there are perceived consequences.

Stay on the computer network or don't. I personally don't care one way or another.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 11, 2011, 02:40:07 AM
Ask the court what they think. I'm sure they can give you a more precise answer than I can. I didn't write the law - I just think it's fairly reasonable.

I didn't ask you the law, I asked you the justification behind the law. First you say it's because I "agree to a contract when I buy a DVD", then you have no answer so you fall back to "ask the court".

Tell me this - why do you feel it is it such a horrific burden for you? By following those relatively simple rules, has it somehow rendered you into indentured servitude with a taskmaster behind you snapping a whip at your back?

Not literally, but not too far from that. By the mere act of participating in a computer network and sharing copied data, I am considered a criminal according to the law and can be legally kidnapped, or killed if I resist kidnapping. Seems pretty fucking bad to me.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 02:32:19 AM
When you buy a DVD, you have entered into a contract. The intended use is clearly stated on the packaging, and you can make a choice then and there to either buy or not buy. Nobody is forcing you to buy.

So let's say I break that contract and I make a copy without any of that "clearly stated" intended use crap. Then I give that copy to MoonShadow, and he makes a copy, etc. If we agree that I agree to the IP law contract (which I don't) by opening the package, has MoonShadow done any such thing? What about the people to which he gives copies?

If MoonShadow can effectively demonstrate in court that he was not aware of any such contract, then he shouldn't have any problems. Tell me, is MoonShadow not aware of any such contract? A jury will decide. If it can be demonstrated that he has watched DVD movies sometime in his life, seen the FBI warning on the screen, purchased any DVD in the past, and in general, didn't crawl out from a underneath a rock yesterday, the jury might not be convinced. It's not complex. MoonShadow needs to convince the court he's not lying when he says he was not aware of any contract. Can he do that? It's a court case, and you libertarians admit that in your libertarian world, there will still be courts, and there will still be a need to convince others the real truth of the matter. So there is no real difference there.

This thread would probably serve as evidence that you and MoonShadow are indeed aware of the laws.

So you don't have to actually agree to the "contract" (buying/opening the DVD), you merely have to be aware of it? Aren't you contradicting what you said here?

When you buy a DVD, you have entered into a contract. The intended use is clearly stated on the packaging, and you can make a choice then and there to either buy or not buy. Nobody is forcing you to buy.

MoonShadow did not buy the DVD, this "contract" is not clearly stated on the packaging. So how can you hold him to the same standard as I, who clearly "agreed" to the "contract"?

Ask the court what they think. I'm sure they can give you a more precise answer than I can. I didn't write the law - I just think it's fairly reasonable.

Tell me this - why do you feel it is it such a horrific burden for you? By following those relatively simple rules, has it somehow rendered you into indentured servitude with a taskmaster behind you snapping a whip at your back?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 11, 2011, 02:22:44 AM
When you buy a DVD, you have entered into a contract. The intended use is clearly stated on the packaging, and you can make a choice then and there to either buy or not buy. Nobody is forcing you to buy.

So let's say I break that contract and I make a copy without any of that "clearly stated" intended use crap. Then I give that copy to MoonShadow, and he makes a copy, etc. If we agree that I agree to the IP law contract (which I don't) by opening the package, has MoonShadow done any such thing? What about the people to which he gives copies?

If MoonShadow can effectively demonstrate in court that he was not aware of any such contract, then he shouldn't have any problems. Tell me, is MoonShadow not aware of any such contract? A jury will decide. If it can be demonstrated that he has watched DVD movies sometime in his life, seen the FBI warning on the screen, purchased any DVD in the past, and in general, didn't crawl out from a underneath a rock yesterday, the jury might not be convinced. It's not complex. MoonShadow needs to convince the court he's not lying when he says he was not aware of any contract. Can he do that? It's a court case, and you libertarians admit that in your libertarian world, there will still be courts, and there will still be a need to convince others the real truth of the matter. So there is no real difference there.

This thread would probably serve as evidence that you and MoonShadow are indeed aware of the laws.

So you don't have to actually agree to the "contract" (buying/opening the DVD), you merely have to be aware of it? Aren't you contradicting what you said here?

When you buy a DVD, you have entered into a contract. The intended use is clearly stated on the packaging, and you can make a choice then and there to either buy or not buy. Nobody is forcing you to buy.

MoonShadow did not buy the DVD, this "contract" is not clearly stated on the packaging. So how can you hold him to the same standard as I, who clearly "agreed" to the "contract"?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 02:20:03 AM
When you buy a DVD, you have entered into a contract. The intended use is clearly stated on the packaging, and you can make a choice then and there to either buy or not buy. Nobody is forcing you to buy.

So let's say I break that contract and I make a copy without any of that "clearly stated" intended use crap. Then I give that copy to MoonShadow, and he makes a copy, etc. If we agree that I agree to the IP law contract (which I don't) by opening the package, has MoonShadow done any such thing? What about the people to which he gives copies?

If MoonShadow can effectively demonstrate in court that he was not aware of any such contract, then he shouldn't have any problems. Tell me, is MoonShadow not aware of any such contract? A jury will decide. If it can be demonstrated that he has watched DVD movies sometime in his life, seen the FBI warning on the screen, purchased any DVD in the past, and in general, didn't crawl out from a underneath a rock yesterday, the jury might not be convinced. It's not complex. MoonShadow needs to convince the court he's not lying when he says he was not aware of any contract. Can he do that? It's a court case, and you libertarians admit that in your libertarian world, there will still be courts, and there will still be a need to convince others the real truth of the matter. So there is no real difference there.

This thread would probably serve as evidence that you and MoonShadow are indeed aware of the laws.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 02:09:09 AM
Contract requires consideration, i.e. both people giving something up. I am giving up my money in exchange for the DVD. The movie maker is giving up what exactly for my money?

They gave up the opportunity to engage in an activity which would have a more consistent and earlier payoff, and instead chose to spend a great deal of time and effort as well as spend money up front to risk making a product in the hope that you and others would, at your discretion, choose to purchase it sometime in the future.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 11, 2011, 02:08:40 AM
When you buy a DVD, you have entered into a contract. The intended use is clearly stated on the packaging, and you can make a choice then and there to either buy or not buy. Nobody is forcing you to buy.

So let's say I break that contract and I make a copy without any of that "clearly stated" intended use crap. Then I give that copy to MoonShadow, and he makes a copy, etc. If we agree that I agree to the IP law contract (which I don't) by opening the package, has MoonShadow done any such thing? What about the people to which he gives copies?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
October 11, 2011, 02:04:51 AM
Contract requires consideration, i.e. both people giving something up. I am giving up my money in exchange for the DVD. The movie maker is giving up what exactly for my money?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 01:50:35 AM
I doubt you spent as much time as I did reading Siggraph papers in the late eighties and nineties. Today's rendering hardware and software algorithms largely exist due to the pioneering research done twenty plus years ago. VALVe's own game rendering engine is a byproduct of research which began at Utah, then extended to Cornell and other places, and then to private firms such as SGI and LucasFilm.

RenderMan was not created for that movie (Toy Story). It was created in the eighties to make movies (plural).

Once you remove the hardware technicians to create a network of rendering nodes, and remove the cost to pay for famous voice talent, what are you left with? Well, a lot. The first thing you need to understand is, first person gaming has benefited heavily from the research done over the past 50 years, of which the very talented team that ultimately became a part of Pixar are significantly responsible. That's the first thing you're ignoring. What else? Concept artists, storyboarders, modelers, riggers, shader writers, procedural geometry coders, texture artists, set designers, animators, lighters, directors, cinematographers, producers, on location research, general research and development, etc.

Take a look at the credits the next time you watch a Pixar movie. I honestly don't know if you're ignoring this out of genuine ignorance, of because it's convenient for you to do so. I made a post about animators. Care to address it?

No, I don't care to address it.  I'll assume that you are correct in whole, since you seem much more versed in this particular topic than I.  It's still irrelevent.

It does not immediately become irrelevant because you wish to no longer address the cost of making a film, or the history that lies behind the cost of developing said technology. Also, you might want to note that the The Abyss, released in 1989, used RenderMan and the RenderMan Shading Language. Toy Story was released in 1995. Here is a very large list of films which used RenderMan:

https://renderman.pixar.com/products/whats_renderman/movies.html

The reason it is relevant is because the costs of creating something matter. Oh, and regarding the Pixar animators? Each animator may take more than a year to create two minutes of animation - and that footage may not even appear in the final film. Typically each animator gets assigned just a minute or two in a feature length film. That's just animating. That is not modeling, texturing, shader writing, rigging, lighting, directing, etc.

Think about that. A one minute sequence of Mr. Incredible engaging in some action (one minute!) may take half a year of tweaking by an animator to get the eye movements down, the finger movements, etc.

Even if Toy Story couldn't have ever been made, the pragmatic argument does not change the fact of the matter that IP is not property, and thus IP laws are violations of real property rights.  If you sell me a DVD of your latest work, and we do not have any agreement otherwise, you have no right to prevent me from doing whatever I wish to my property.  My property is the physical DVD, your animations are just data.  If we have an agreement that I won't buy the DVD and then share your data, I'm bound by different laws and different principles.  But there is no such thing as an agreement that I'm bound to simply reason of opening a package.

When you buy a DVD, you have entered into a contract. The intended use is clearly stated on the packaging, and you can make a choice then and there to either buy or not buy. Nobody is forcing you to buy.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 11, 2011, 01:36:21 AM
But there is no such thing as an agreement that I'm bound to simply reason of opening a package.

It's the shrink wrap contract, a fork of the social contract.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 11, 2011, 01:34:00 AM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1995_Dec_4/ai_17812444/

It should be obvious that the cost savings of current hardware compared to a 100 node Sun workstation cluster would be significant, but also the vast amount of highly skilled labor required in both the construction of the cluster itself, and of the custom rendering software, would be entirely unnecessary today.  Sure, Renderman might not exist, but alternatives likely would, such as VALVe's own game rendering engine.  Renderman was created for that movie, and once created was available for all such followup CGI movies.  Yet, if the movie had not been made, CGI rendering software would likely still currently exist due to first person gaming.  So if the script had been shelved, and someone were to dust it off today, the production budget would be lower by an order of magnitude if the voice actors didn't have to be Tom Hanks and Tim Allen.   Granted, it still wouldn't be cheap, but it still would have been a winner on the direct-to-video path.

As noted, however, it still wouldn't have any bearing on the principles of the matter even if I'm completely full of bovine fecal matter.

I doubt you spent as much time as I did reading Siggraph papers in the late eighties and nineties. Today's rendering hardware and software algorithms largely exist due to the pioneering research done twenty plus years ago. VALVe's own game rendering engine is a byproduct of research which began at Utah, then extended to Cornell and other places, and then to private firms such as SGI and LucasFilm.

RenderMan was not created for that movie (Toy Story). It was created in the eighties to make movies (plural).

Once you remove the hardware technicians to create a network of rendering nodes, and remove the cost to pay for famous voice talent, what are you left with? Well, a lot. The first thing you need to understand is, first person gaming has benefited heavily from the research done over the past 50 years, of which the very talented team that ultimately became a part of Pixar are significantly responsible. That's the first thing you're ignoring. What else? Concept artists, storyboarders, modelers, riggers, shader writers, procedural geometry coders, texture artists, set designers, animators, lighters, directors, cinematographers, producers, on location research, general research and development, etc.

Take a look at the credits the next time you watch a Pixar movie. I honestly don't know if you're ignoring this out of genuine ignorance, of because it's convenient for you to do so. I made a post about animators. Care to address it?

No, I don't care to address it.  I'll assume that you are correct in whole, since you seem much more versed in this particular topic than I.  It's still irrelevent.  Even if Toy Story couldn't have ever been made, the pragmatic argument does not change the fact of the matter that IP is not property, and thus IP laws are violations of real property rights.  If you sell me a DVD of your latest work, and we do not have any agreement otherwise, you have no right to prevent me from doing whatever I wish to my property.  My property is the physical DVD, your animations are just data.  If we have an agreement that I won't buy the DVD and then share your data, I'm bound by different laws and different principles.  But there is no such thing as an agreement that I'm bound to simply reason of opening a package.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 01:17:31 AM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1995_Dec_4/ai_17812444/

It should be obvious that the cost savings of current hardware compared to a 100 node Sun workstation cluster would be significant, but also the vast amount of highly skilled labor required in both the construction of the cluster itself, and of the custom rendering software, would be entirely unnecessary today.  Sure, Renderman might not exist, but alternatives likely would, such as VALVe's own game rendering engine.  Renderman was created for that movie, and once created was available for all such followup CGI movies.  Yet, if the movie had not been made, CGI rendering software would likely still currently exist due to first person gaming.  So if the script had been shelved, and someone were to dust it off today, the production budget would be lower by an order of magnitude if the voice actors didn't have to be Tom Hanks and Tim Allen.   Granted, it still wouldn't be cheap, but it still would have been a winner on the direct-to-video path.

As noted, however, it still wouldn't have any bearing on the principles of the matter even if I'm completely full of bovine fecal matter.

I doubt you spent as much time as I did reading Siggraph papers in the late eighties and nineties. Today's rendering hardware and software algorithms largely exist due to the pioneering research done twenty plus years ago. VALVe's own game rendering engine is a byproduct of research which began at Utah, then extended to Cornell and other places, and then to private firms such as SGI and LucasFilm.

RenderMan was not created for that movie (Toy Story). It was created in the eighties to make movies (plural).

Once you remove the hardware technicians to create a network of rendering nodes, and remove the cost to pay for famous voice talent, what are you left with? Well, a lot. The first thing you need to understand is, first person gaming has benefited heavily from the research done over the past 50 years, of which the very talented team that ultimately became a part of Pixar are significantly responsible. That's the first thing you're ignoring. What else? Concept artists, storyboarders, modelers, riggers, shader writers, procedural geometry coders, texture artists, set designers, animators, lighters, directors, cinematographers, producers, on location research, general research and development, etc.

Take a look at the credits the next time you watch a Pixar movie. I honestly don't know if you're ignoring this out of genuine ignorance, of because it's convenient for you to do so. I made a post about animators. Care to address it?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 11, 2011, 01:00:01 AM
If Toy Story hadn't already been produced, the exact same movie could have been produced by a creative team using three or four consumer desktops networked together.

And how does this radically reduce the cost of production of a CG animated film?

Are you serious?

Of course I'm serious. Don't you want to just answer the question?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1995_Dec_4/ai_17812444/

It should be obvious that the cost savings of current hardware compared to a 100 node Sun workstation cluster would be significant, but also the vast amount of highly skilled labor required in both the construction of the cluster itself, and of the custom rendering software, would be entirely unnecessary today.  Sure, Renderman might not exist, but alternatives likely would, such as VALVe's own game rendering engine.  Renderman was created for that movie, and once created was available for all such followup CGI movies.  Yet, if the movie had not been made, CGI rendering software would likely still currently exist due to first person gaming.  So if the script had been shelved, and someone were to dust it off today, the production budget would be lower by an order of magnitude if the voice actors didn't have to be Tom Hanks and Tim Allen.   Granted, it still wouldn't be cheap, but it still would have been a winner on the direct-to-video path.

As noted, however, it still wouldn't have any bearing on the principles of the matter even if I'm completely full of bovine fecal matter.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 11, 2011, 12:58:06 AM
You got sucked in to his meaningless tangent. Back on topic...

No, I created this tangent. You were the one who deemed it meaningless and tried to avoid getting sucked into it.

Quote
No perceived or actual benefits of intellectual property law negate the question of morality. In this exact same way, no perceived or actual benefits of slavery negated the question of its morality.

Do you have a response to this, FirstAscent? Why do you get to use violence against me for using my property (pen & paper, computer, etc) in a manner in which you disapprove and get to claim the moral high ground?

One of the issues I believe are faults with most of those I argue with here is their preference for an extreme one size fits all philosophical statement about a world that is filled with very many things. Provide a concrete specific example regarding your grievance with IP laws.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 11, 2011, 12:48:33 AM
Well, to be technical, they could've waited and spent about $10,000 on four computers with lots of ram and either single Quadro cards, or SLI mode Nvidia or ATI cards, then used a slew of rendering engines, such as the Unreal engine or VALVe's engine, and rendered the movie in near real-time, spending very little on employment for designers and rendering staff, since they would only need them for maybe 6 month to a year,  instead of about 5 years on very slow rendering machines that cost a few hundred thousand to a few million to build and operate.

They could've waited? Why? Anyway, have you ever worked with RenderMan and RenderMan shaders? And rendered out super sampled images with jitter, motion blur, featuring many 1,000s of shaders, subsurface scattering, procedurally generated geometry pushing nearly one terabyte of data (or more) per frame at 5k resolution? If you want to try it, download a production ready RenderMan compliant renderer for free here: http://www.3delight.com/en/

Few hundred thousand > $10,000

Your lhs and rhs are both underestimated.

5 years of paying salaries and benefits > 6 to 12 months of paying salaries and benefits

Do you know how many days an animator typically spends on one minute of footage?

You got sucked in to his meaningless tangent. Back on topic...

No perceived or actual benefits of intellectual property law negate the question of morality. In this exact same way, no perceived or actual benefits of slavery negated the question of its morality.

Do you have a response to this, FirstAscent? Why do you get to use violence against me for using my property (pen & paper, computer, etc) in a manner in which you disapprove and get to claim the moral high ground?
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