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Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 39. (Read 105875 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 05, 2011, 01:51:28 PM
OK - fair point. 

Both fail the simple "Is the harm done greater than the harm averted?" test. 

If you must cause harm to stop harm you have either broken even (self-defense). However, in contradistinction to that, if you have initiated it, you have tipped the scales.

I don't see the castration argument as much different. You will, no doubt, save lives. Castration is not life threatening, it is a somewhat temporary inconvenience. If what you are after is "saving" lives, it will do exactly that. There will be fewer deaths by STD's and incidentals (tainted blood supplies, abortions, unwanted pregnancies and overpopulation).

The rebuttal has perfectly valid points given the same logical axioms as regulation.

If you have to choose between 2 harms, take the less harmful one and you are ahead.  For example, if you have to choose between a blanket prohibition on nukes and a risk of people using nukes for personal reasons, the blanket prohibition is essentially harmless while the use of nukes is destructive.  Its a very easy choice.

Castration on the other hand is a greater harm than a STD so again the choice is very easy.  Same applies to slavery.  

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 05, 2011, 01:48:56 PM
OK - fair point.  

Both fail the simple "Is the harm done greater than the harm averted?" test.  

If you must cause harm to stop harm you have either broken even (self-defense). However, in contradistinction to that, if you have initiated it, you have tipped the scales.

I don't see the castration argument as much different. You will, no doubt, save lives. Castration is not life threatening, it is a somewhat temporary inconvenience. If what you are after is "saving" lives, it will do exactly that. There will be fewer deaths by STD's and incidentals (tainted blood supplies, abortions, unwanted pregnancies and overpopulation).

The rebuttal has perfectly valid points given the same logical axioms as regulation.

You are so wrong. The castration issue is not like the other issues. You own (call it version A of ownership, if you will) your body. Everything else is not version A of ownership. Call it version B of ownership, if you will.

We can then break down version B of ownership into many different versions (ownership of a sofa vs. ownership of land, etc.).
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 05, 2011, 01:35:42 PM
OK - fair point. 

Both fail the simple "Is the harm done greater than the harm averted?" test. 

If you must cause harm to stop harm you have either broken even (self-defense). However, in contradistinction to that, if you have initiated it, you have tipped the scales.

I don't see the castration argument as much different. You will, no doubt, save lives. Castration is not life threatening, it is a somewhat temporary inconvenience. If what you are after is "saving" lives, it will do exactly that. There will be fewer deaths by STD's and incidentals (tainted blood supplies, abortions, unwanted pregnancies and overpopulation).

The rebuttal has perfectly valid points given the same logical axioms as regulation.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 05, 2011, 01:02:21 PM
Not really.  Its an attempt to catch up with b2c's ubiquitous slavery analogy.  I dealt with that umpteen times now so why waste time on a copy?

For the same reason why I waste my time on yours.

OK - fair point. 

Both fail the simple "Is the harm done greater than the harm averted?" test. 
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 05, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
Not really.  Its an attempt to catch up with b2c's ubiquitous slavery analogy.  I dealt with that umpteen times now so why waste time on a copy?

For the same reason why I waste my time on yours.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
October 05, 2011, 12:56:50 PM
How is that relevant? It's like one person is saying do X to save people, and you're saying, "No, because look how unacceptable Y is to reduce crime." Address X, not Y.

It's relevant because it calls into question regulatory nuances. The collar represents regulation. I may not have phrased it that way but that's what it implies.

The government could just as easily lop our pointer fingers off because it's the finger most used to pull the trigger on a gun (hence, trigger finger). By doing so, there is a greater likelihood there will be less violent gun crimes. Funny thing is, gun manufacturers and criminals will find another way around given enough persistence.

The examples are numerous.

Address X, not Y. Demonstrate either solutions to X or the problems with solutions to X. Forget about Y and Z and W, etc.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 05, 2011, 12:54:33 PM
If its beneficial, there isn't really a huge choice Tongue  The problem we have is that some things are beneficial in the real world but conflict with abstract principles.  For example, its beneficial not to have nuclear weapins in every home but b2c and Fred feel that it infringes their liberty if they are not allowed have nukes in their homes.

So answer Rassah's question regarding male castration. Seems he makes a very valid point.

Not really.  Its an attempt to catch up with b2c's ubiquitous slavery analogy.  I dealt with that umpteen times now so why waste time on a copy?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 05, 2011, 12:44:23 PM
If its beneficial, there isn't really a huge choice Tongue  The problem we have is that some things are beneficial in the real world but conflict with abstract principles.  For example, its beneficial not to have nuclear weapins in every home but b2c and Fred feel that it infringes their liberty if they are not allowed have nukes in their homes.

So answer Rassah's question regarding male castration. Seems he makes a very valid point.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 05, 2011, 12:14:52 PM
Assuming its the former, the damage done exceeds the damage avoided. 

When you/he says "if I can demonstrate that X is beneficial, would you support it", the question must be answered as if X can be beneficial. Would you accept your non-answer in response to your question?

If its beneficial, there isn't really a huge choice Tongue  The problem we have is that some things are beneficial in the real world but conflict with abstract principles.  For example, its beneficial not to have nuclear weapins in every home but b2c and Fred feel that it infringes their liberty if they are not allowed have nukes in their homes.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
October 05, 2011, 11:13:48 AM
Probably more interesting question would've been:
If I can demonstrate that castrating all male adults, and, going forward, castrating every male newborn, will help prevent rape, AIDS, sexually transmitted deseases, and unwanted pregnancies/abortions, and with the only reproductive choice being specifically planned extraction of sperm and invitro fertilization, thus greatly reducing the risks of overpopulation and destruction of the environment... would you be ready and willing to lose your d**k?

I can't argue with that one. A regulation with a built-in answer. Can't beat that. Sign me up.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
October 05, 2011, 10:06:06 AM
The question I asked you was "If I can demonstrate that regulating fertiliser sales saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow regulation of fertiliser sales?"

If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?

Probably more interesting question would've been:
If I can demonstrate that castrating all male adults, and, going forward, castrating every male newborn, will help prevent rape, AIDS, sexually transmitted deseases, and unwanted pregnancies/abortions, and with the only reproductive choice being specifically planned extraction of sperm and invitro fertilization, thus greatly reducing the risks of overpopulation and destruction of the environment... would you be ready and willing to lose your d**k?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 05, 2011, 09:36:43 AM

That's not what I'm saying, either.  I'm saying that regulation is okay if it actually is the best option, but that you have no way of knowing that because you are unwilling to consider alternatives.

Then we are in agreement.  I don't want regulation.  You don't want regulation.  But if its the best option, we both agree that its right to regulate.



  I resign.  This conversation is futile.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 05, 2011, 09:31:03 AM
Yeah, I know, it doesn't answer your question. I can't answer the question. It's like asking if you still enjoy beating your wife. It's a loaded question.

The answer is mu.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
October 05, 2011, 09:27:53 AM
Assuming its the former, the damage done exceeds the damage avoided. 

When you/he says "if I can demonstrate that X is beneficial, would you support it", the question must be answered as if X can be beneficial. Would you accept your non-answer in response to your question?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 05, 2011, 08:45:22 AM
The question I asked you was "If I can demonstrate that regulating fertiliser sales saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow regulation of fertiliser sales?"

If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?

You make the same fallacy all the time.  Compare every minor inconvenience with slavery.

Since we already know your answer and you are comfortable with your position, I don't mind.  You view is that the real world deaths of people as a consequence of failing to regulate would not justify the breach of your principles.  Fred believes the same but for some reason he can't bring himself to admit it.

Still waiting for your answer.

The answer is no.  The damage done exceeds the damage avoided.

No, you can't change the parameters of the question. I specifically said that, "If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?" See the part in bold? I'm stipulating that the damage done doesn't exceed the damage avoided. Does that change your answer? Are you then ready to endorse forced enslavement?

By slavery you mean that the children of those imprisoned are available for sale?  Or simple imprisonment as we use for potentially dangerous people?

Assuming its the former, the damage done exceeds the damage avoided. 
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
October 05, 2011, 08:43:36 AM
The question I asked you was "If I can demonstrate that regulating fertiliser sales saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow regulation of fertiliser sales?"

If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?

You make the same fallacy all the time.  Compare every minor inconvenience with slavery.

Since we already know your answer and you are comfortable with your position, I don't mind.  You view is that the real world deaths of people as a consequence of failing to regulate would not justify the breach of your principles.  Fred believes the same but for some reason he can't bring himself to admit it.

Still waiting for your answer.

The answer is no.  The damage done exceeds the damage avoided.

No, you can't change the parameters of the question. I specifically said that, "If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?" See the part in bold? I'm stipulating that the damage done doesn't exceed the damage avoided. Does that change your answer? Are you then ready to endorse forced enslavement?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 05, 2011, 08:40:50 AM
The question I asked you was "If I can demonstrate that regulating fertiliser sales saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow regulation of fertiliser sales?"

If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?

You make the same fallacy all the time.  Compare every minor inconvenience with slavery.

Since we already know your answer and you are comfortable with your position, I don't mind.  You view is that the real world deaths of people as a consequence of failing to regulate would not justify the breach of your principles.  Fred believes the same but for some reason he can't bring himself to admit it.

Still waiting for your answer.

The answer is no.  The damage done exceeds the damage avoided.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
October 05, 2011, 08:34:58 AM
The question I asked you was "If I can demonstrate that regulating fertiliser sales saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow regulation of fertiliser sales?"

If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?

You make the same fallacy all the time.  Compare every minor inconvenience with slavery.

Since we already know your answer and you are comfortable with your position, I don't mind.  You view is that the real world deaths of people as a consequence of failing to regulate would not justify the breach of your principles.  Fred believes the same but for some reason he can't bring himself to admit it.

Still waiting for your answer.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
October 05, 2011, 08:33:38 AM
The question I asked you was "If I can demonstrate that regulating fertiliser sales saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow regulation of fertiliser sales?"

If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?

You make the same fallacy all the time.  Compare every minor inconvenience with slavery.

Since we already know your answer and you are comfortable with your position, I don't mind.  You view is that the real world deaths of people as a consequence of failing to regulate would not justify the breach of your principles.  Fred believes the same but for some reason he can't bring himself to admit it.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
October 05, 2011, 08:13:06 AM
The question I asked you was "If I can demonstrate that regulating fertiliser sales saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow regulation of fertiliser sales?"

If I can demonstrate that forced slavery saves lives compared to any other solution, are you happy to allow forced enslavement?
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