Topic: IOTA - Permissioned ledger Russian extortion scheme - page 18. (Read 20168 times)

Shows you don't do your research, I promote ZEIT and don't hide that from anyone.
Plus I own over 100 million and will until my death, so I am the ultimate bag holder and ultimate supporter.
What coin do you support with such intensity?

Zeitgeist have no ties with ZEIT, and if it shocks you , I am a Devout Believer in a Divine Creator.  
Also have no problem with Free Markets, it is when the Government interferes they remove the freedom from the markets.
ZEIT translated from German means Time.
So we are basically a coin to be Bartered for Time of service or goods.
We want the world to use our coin , not just some rich cat in the US.
The World , Poor, Middle class, & Rich, and we will make it happen.

 

FYI:
I prefer to think of ZEIT in agricultural terms.
1. ZEIT is a Virtual Resource , with ZEIT like a seed , and electricity and ISP Bandwidth, and Time to make more.
2. For us it is not interest , it is a Virtual Harvest.  
3. We always have and always will keep a FREE FAUCET funded with Millions of ZEIT available so people can get ZEIT for FREE at
http://www.multifaucet.tk/index.php?faucet=ZEIT    

Is it ironic to anyone else that this guy is hyping up some PoS coin called Zeitcoin, which is an interest based, rich get richer system as the cure for all of societies monetary problems?  That coin, if I'm not mistaken, was actually based on that "Zeitgeist movement" thing.  Some viral internet video most people have seen which had some viable points, then they released a second followup video expousing hardcore socialism as the solution to everything.  

Most people here are not socialists (definitely not me), but if you are one, proof of stake is the exact opposite of that.  It's more like a share cropper system where everyone else who isn't rich is your bitch.  It's the worst of capitalism and socialism combined.  People receive things for doing nothing, but the people who receive it are the ones at the top of the pyramid to strengthen their position of power even more.

Wealth accumulates wealth.
Really tell that to the Farmer , that wealth is divided between their children upon their deaths.

Are all of you Guys Single and don't spend any money on a Wife or Children because you seem too confused about the real word and our links to it?

 


FYI:
That longer that quieting time, the less chance a big stakeholder can block the poor from staking.  
People can always set aside some for staking and the other for spending, you know like a Checkings & Saving Account.
PoW can monopolize the earning 24x7, Proof of Stake with a decent recovery time of 15 days or more, means the large stakeholder can't stake , leaving the poorer member the opportunity to stake until they recharge, it is a much fairer system than PoW.

Really do you go to the Supermarket and claim it is extortion, when you buy food?
Buy it don't buy it your Choice.  

 

Wealth accumulates wealth. Large stakeholders will earn large returns, and spend a little. Small stakeholders will live paycheck to paycheck and spend whatever they earn.

Furthermore, most proof-of-stake systems have in-built mechanisms that exacerbate this phenomenon. For example, a quieting time before you can stake. If you transact a lot (say from working and buying food) then you never stake. If you sit on your wealth you stake all the time, thus your return is higher. So more accumulation.

And we haven't even gotten to superlinear returns on unequal voting power. I'll leave that to someone else because I'm bored of you.

That's called an extortion scheme, and it's not a permissionless ledger either.  The extortion blueprint is:

1)  Create PoS or IOTA tokens out of thin air with most or all residing in a genesis block which you control.

2)  Attempt to convince or force others to require them for some purpose

3)  Since you cornered the market already on day one by design, everyone is now required to go through you and your associates to be extorted at will


That covers the extortion part.  As for the second part, for it to be a permissionless ledger, there has to be a constant turnover of coins accomplished in one of two ways, either finite coin count and TX fees in block reward, or permanently inflationary mining where outsiders can acquire them without being forced to go through the original holders, exchanges, or other parties.

While IOTA is both a permissioned ledger and extortion scheme, the original PoS coin, Peercoin, attempted to not be an extortion scheme by having coins issued via mining, yet it fails in the aspect that it still is a permissioned ledger by being a recursive, closed entropy system.

LOL, you then need permission from the Credit Card company and a Shipping Company and the Hardware Reseller.
Without their permission you don't get your little toy.

 


FYI:
You also needed permission from the ISP to even place the order.

 

My Argument is better than yours,
yours required a person be enclosed completely in a sealed system. (Complete Fantasy)

Stake has to be traded , if the owner want to buy anything with it, if not why do they even bother to stake.

Any Wealth paper or otherwise has no point if it is not traded, how many rich people do you know that don't spend a penny of their money for food , if nothing else, therefore guaranteeing they are not in a sealed system and destroying your premise.

 

No you don't. https://www.google.com/search?q=off+grid+electricity

And beyond that there are many, many, different electric companies throughout the world, all largely equivalent in terms off the service they provide. To the extent that they are centrally controlled that is through a paper wealth system (i.e. fiat proof of stake).

You still need permission from the Electric company to have electricity in your home.
Don't pay your light bill for 3 months, and you will see them deny you permission.  


 

Your argument is terrible. Nearly all of the things you mention (excluding new cars perhaps) are inherently available from many different sources. Food, water, etc. Go to probably millions of distinct habitable locations on earth and you will find them. Companionship is available from billions of people, healthcare from millions of providers, etc.

In nearly all existing proof-of-stake systems, the stake is highly concentrated by anywhere from a handful to possibly a few thousand people, in the latter case a group which likely has large internal concentration.

Moreover, the nature of paper wealth is that it is not subject to physical constraints of space or crowding and therefore tends to reach extraordinary concentration. Nearly all of the paper wealth (trillions or quadrillions) that exist in the world are controlled by a handful of banks, or in turn collude via entities such as central banks and the IMF. That control over the bulk of wealth allows them to extend that control all the way down to banning weed stores from getting bank accounts and encumbering nearly all physical wealth in a web of debt.

Any system based on control of notional wealth is in practice permissioned.

Systems based on control of physical devices such as computers or even physical phenomenon such as electricity may become permissioned (as I would suggest Bitcoin largely has at least for the moment), but they have a fighting chance in a way that wealth-based systems such as proof of stake do not.

Or how about I divert the electricity from my toaster to my computer to run on the same isp that I download porn with? My point was that no one monitors the first two and the third is barely monitored and I can move to a different service whenever I feel like it. But maybe with IOT I'll need to get permission from my toaster to use its electricity, but we're on good speaking terms, so it's probably cool.

If you going to make weak theories , don't be surprise when you're called on it,
or can you build an asic from stuff out of your yard?  

 

FYI:
You still need Permission from the electric company and an ISP?

FYI2:
Better & Funnier Yet.  
Prove me wrong, go out in the wilderness and create a BTC miner that can actually mine BTC , and then post the pics so we can be in AWE at you.
You can't buy ASICS, you can't pay a ISP, And you have to make your own Electricity, so that no one gives you permission.

FYI3:
You know even if you pull all of that off, You Still Need Permission from an Exchange to sell your BTC,  SO EPIC FAIL!!!

FYI4: Regarding Electricity , in your Hubris you believe everyone has access to it, Think Again.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electricity-gap-developing-countries-energy-wood-charcoal/

So the world has to conspire to take away electricity  (that can be used for anything), hardware (that can be used for anything) and ISP (which can be used for anything) in order for POW to be equally permission-based as a POS coin? WTF, dude.

You can go to an exchange and buy some, instead of making up stories.
If BTC owners don't sell their coins , you can't buy them either, so your Logic is Flawed.  

You act like people are sealed in a bubble, fact is there is always something someone else has, that someone else wants, and to get those services & goods, we must trade with each other. IE: Food , Water , Healthcare, Companionship, Entertainment , New Cars, all of this require you give something up, the idea that someone can live without trading anything is beyond fantasy.

Because you still have to buy the asics or cloud mining from someone, so without their permission, you can't get BTC.  

In other words you have to get permission from the ISP, Hardware Manufacturers, and electric company , before you can even attempt mining,
so this permission verses permission less theory is really just a load a BS.


 

FYI:
So in other words For any System to Work Requires Permission from someone, which totally destroys your Argument.  

All of them, without permission from an existing stakeholder (hacking exception from previous post noted)

In theory yes. In practice it closer to permissioned. You remember USB dongles for copy protection? Much the same as Bitcoin ASICs. They're not an absolute barrier to copying of course (which if possible would make use only by permission), but they put up a wall. In theory you could hack a stakeholder and steal their stake, making it permissionless. But the wall is there.

Yea, but it's just like any real free market in that there's no guarantee other's won't find a competitive advantage over you, survival of the fittest.  Whether that advantage is building a factory with Chinese peasant slave labor, or operating an unlicensed nuclear reactor on the bottom of the ocean floor.  As long as you can perform the hash function on a CPU that existed before Bitcoin was even releaesd, the fact remains that it is a permissionless ledger.

Still calling BS on Proof of Stake Claims.
Which Proof of Stake coins are you unable to Acquire?

 

Agree.

Bitcoin is dangerously close to that as well. The pricing of SHA2 ASICs is basically an extortion scheme.