Topic: [IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings - page 163. (Read 658701 times)

This is excellent news! Huge market there!

Thanks for the update!


Is the date a typo, or are you referring to 9 Aug. 2014?

We would open up ourselves to more litigation risk, by having too many options, the scenario of "it wasn't clear" is a much stronger case when you have multiple and varying options. With just two options it is clear cut.

A pegged wallet provides access to the Bitcoin protocol for use as a medium of exchange, with the benefits of Bitcoin being felt through the inability of a central authority putting their hands into your wallet to take everything out against your will. This also provides a stable platform to enable commerce to occur, the benefits to the merchants accepting Bitcoin payments are speed and cost savings.

A BTC wallet provides all the aspects of the Bitcoin protocol with all increases and decreases felt by the customer, we receive the exchange fee, which will be similar to one of the traditional exchanges.

Time Based Wallets, hoard the coins for an agreed period of time and in return for the protection against negative movements and you get a percentage of any growth.

We are also adding the additional services such as international remittance, we are currently working towards having in excess of 1 million locations worldwide at the time of launch, where we can transmit the Bitcoin across the globe to these agents and the end user can walk away with the Government Fiat in their local jurisdiction, the transmission will be completed with Bitcoin instead of the slow banking systems currently used. The benefits of using Bitcoin for this process can reduce the costs in comparison to the traditional operators in this space.

We are also going to be making progress in relation to branded insurance products through a third party carrier from the beginning of November onwards, we will be in a position to provide more clarity on the projected income from these products, shortly after this time. I will not provide any projected earnings because there are too many contributing factors to consider until we have chosen our strategic partner and I do not want to mislead anyone.

We are also investigating the opportunity to add a European based Bitinstant style service to our offerings and also our own Bitcoin based securities market, the latter is only preliminary investigations to ascertain any legal/regulatory requirements.

I am a main speaker at a conference in Cyprus on October 9th which is organized by the Cyprus International Institute of Management, my speech is on both Neo & Bee and Bitcoin in general.

I shall have the first merchants ready to announce by the end of next week.

I shall be announcing the Operations Director once I return to Cyprus from Amsterdam.

I need to finish writing out the post that will detail our path to regulation and detailing our partners that are aiding us in this process and providing ongoing services. I need to ensure this post is extremely clear and accurate, so no misunderstandings occur. I will complete this first thing in the morning (Dutch timezone), as I am in desperate need of sleep (Apologies for this slight delay).

Clearly. Can you explain more what the point is then?

You didn't get the point.

Simple and direct!

Having a percentage pegged account is silly. Just have two options, a EUR account or a BTC account. If the customer wants to have a mid-level exposure to the bitcoin price fluctuations, they can just have one account in BTC and one account in EUR, and put 50% of their money in each.

It would be a dynamic interest rate that may attract lots of customers. Risk may be offset by higher business volume. Keep in mind banks also offer decent interest rates on euro deposits.

I think 15% is astronomically high considering you're holding all risk, but the idea in general isn't a bad one. I'd say 5% would be my absolute limit. Perhaps as an introductory kind of thing that lasts for the first 6 months or something.

You can make the case customer got something out of it. It's a big difference between something and nothing.

If I were to be really hellbent on making this high % peg idea work properly, I would seriously consider providing people with a 5% to 15% Bitcoin exposure for free even on a 100% peg. This way customer can get some extra from whole thing and still withdraw as much euros as he's deposited. I think taking on that extra risk would be totally worth it for dozens of reasons.

The varying percentages is an interesting idea.

As for the rest, this really is an easily navigated issue. The customers of pegged accounts wouldn't be "robbed" of anything. To think otherwise is patently unreasonable.

By your rationale, you'd run the same litigation risk with those holding 25%/50% pegged accounts - "They profited more than me! I'm suing!"

Yeah, I understand that. Although, I feel that fear would be pretty easy to put to rest.

Which is why I think having 25%, 50% pegged accounts and such would be helpful instead of 100% pegged.

Potential lawsuits I see coming out of 100% pegged accounts is clients suing, asking for some of that profit since they've provided all the money. A judge might go with the client on this one, as it's not hard for a decent lawyer for prove there may be some "abusive clause" in that agreement, even if customer signed it. If one such trial is won by a customer, it will open up whole can of worms, creating a precedent for others to follow.

What you may see as "protection from price fluctuation", a lawyer might he as abusive "high street robbery clause, sheeple unsuspecting customer being ripped off by smart savvy sophisticated Brit banker"

50% peg is also a way of reducing the risk and reward, so I'm not sure we disagree. I was adding to the quoted portion of your comment.


I wasn't clear, since I don't know what the local situation is. For instance, Danny said they would have their own internal index. I don't know how they will manage it (assuming in connection with Bee), but it could be used to milden the effects of volatility. This way, clients can take full advantage of long term appreciation, but will be affected less by short term swings.

Of course, one concern is, while a 50% peg is pretty clear, a more managed financial product is prone to criticism.


Yes, I'm proposing that Neo could encourage users to trade in Bitcoin directly to make the percentage higher, which should reduce the risk for the bank.


Correct. I don't think anyone will have such problems with pegged accounts, as long as they can access their deposits in Euro. My concern is people who think they are shouldering the risk of Bitcoin's exchange rate going downhill.

I'm not sure how to respond. What you're arguing simply isn't a point of contention. Assuming the customers are properly informed of the logistics of the pegged accounts (which I have no reason to think they wouldn't based on everything I've seen/read about Neo&Bee) then there isn't going to be any successful lawsuit. Feel free to disagree with that if you like. Nothing about the structure of the pegged accounts could be considered "abusive" to any reasonable person (which is the criteria most courts operate under).

The concept is simple: if you open a pegged account, you get to benefit from the bitcoin ecosystem without having to shoulder the risk of price fluctuation. Since you aren't shouldering any risk, you aren't seeing reward from price increases. What's that? You want to reap rewards if the bitcoin price increases? Perfect, there's a bitcoin-denominated account you can open.

Guess you haven't carefully read my post. I've said there's a good chance people will open such 100% pegged accounts exactly for that reason, that most act emotionally. I can see quite a few people being swayed by some persuasive marketing campaign to do just that, especially after the deposit confiscation scare they been through.

Regarding "being laughed out of court"; you really sure a populist court will be pro-banks these days? (especially with recent developments in Greece and Cyprus. For those who don't know Cyprus is basically Greece, ethnically, regionally and culturally). Banks are losing trials left and right in "abusive clauses" trials. So what if they've signed agreement, agreeing to whatever terms?! If court labels that agreement as having "abusive clauses" the agreement is worthless.

Which would be laughed out of court before anyone could take a seat.

What you're arguing here is that because people aren't, as you put it, rational enough to grasp the concept that risk and reward are directly correlated, people what...aren't going to open accounts? I don't think this risk/reward concept is lost on people in quite the way you think it is. People by and large don't get all bent out of shape because someone opened a profitable business. The people opening the business stuck their necks out. Who else should reap profits if not them?

I'm very confident this is a widely understood concept.

And most people are rational and will accept that statement with a smile on their face, right? Thing is people don't work like that. Any historian, psychologist or anyone who understands human behavior will tell you that. People are perhaps 20% rational and 80% emotional. This is how our brains are wired.

They will take for granted the fact that you shoulder all the risk if you were to lose money but will also react very negatively, in a visceral way, if you were to make tons of profits with their money. I can even see a lawsuit or two in there.

They'd be asked to keep in mind that they shouldered none of the risk.

What you mean by "protection from volatility" is actually "protection from profits" as you know all too well that Bitcoin is designed to appreciate in value over time, unlike the euro (and there's lots of pressure on Germany and ECB to hit the print button bigtime).

 Not really sure what you tried to say in the bolded section above (was bit cryptic), but some customers will be pissed they've missed the Bitcoin rally and that you cashed in on all the profits. That's my point. If you were to also offer a 25% or 50% peg such negative customer reaction may be avoided.

You say Neo should sell Bitcoin accounts whenever possible but will you actively advertise the Bitcoin accounts since you've mentioned this will only be 1% of your business?