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Topic: Is deflation truly that bad for an economy? - page 5. (Read 24946 times)

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Who cares about Say's Law?  Its not correct and outdated

 Grin

It is obviously correct, because it is simple accountancy.  The entire sales of any enterprise goes exactly to all of the production factors: wages (paying labor), dividends (paying capital and entrepreneurship), and the buying of other materials and services (ground), which are, themselves then, again inputs to other enterprises.

In the end, every penny that is earned in selling the goods, comes in the hands of someone, directly or indirectly involved in its production.  All those pennies together are, obviously, exactly equal to the sum of the prices of the sold goods.  So all those receivers of those pennies can buy exactly the sold goods.

Never ever can goods be sold that cannot be bought by the income generated by that sale.  Of course, it is not because those goods can be bought, that they WILL be bought, because the receivers of those sales incomes might want OTHER things.  But every penny that is an income from a sales, will end up in SOMEONE's pockets, and can hence in principle be spend to buy that product.  That's the essence of the contents of Say's law.  It is simple, mathematical, bookkeeping.

The only way in which Say's law could be wrong, is if somebody were to burry some money received from the sales, to never dig it up again.  Then, the sum of all the prices of the sold goods, minus the amount of money burried, would of course not be sufficient to buy all those goods.  But that is because there would be a "leak" in the money fluxes.

sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
the benefit is that you have increased output.

I can now use the same strategy towards a worker.  I can say that in order for my products to become cheaper so that he can buy more of them, I propose that he works 20% more time for a slightly lower wage.  The logic is the same.  If the guy tells me: "hey, you propose me to work more and earn less ?" I will answer him: "but my dear, your benefit is that you have increased your output" Smiley


Its a macro concept not micro
As long as output scales with extra work time you are correct, but generally workers operate at top capacity, and lack the ability to grow to meet higher demands.
Companies on the other can scale better, and with growth, comes efficiency, this is why output matters.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
the benefit is that you have increased output.

I can now use the same strategy towards a worker.  I can say that in order for my products to become cheaper so that he can buy more of them, I propose that he works 20% more time for a slightly lower wage.  The logic is the same.  If the guy tells me: "hey, you propose me to work more and earn less ?" I will answer him: "but my dear, your benefit is that you have increased your output" Smiley


Its a macro concept not micro

I will tell him that too Smiley


Seriously, the argument is totally flawed, because it goes against Say's law.  Say's law says that all beneficiaries of all the production factors of a product make exactly the amount of money necessary to buy up all of the production, if they want to.

Consider an extreme case, where industry is totally automatized and labor is worth zilch, because there is no labor needed any more.  According to your argument, in such a case, that industry wouldn't find any customers, because labor wage (macro) is zero.

Nothing is less true.  In fact, all the sales go in the pockets of the share holders, so THEY can buy the products.

In a totally automated industry, the industry will make products for the share holders, which will be their sole customers, and which will be totally served by all the fully automated  production.  Without one single dollar of wages.


Who cares about Say's Law?  Its not correct and outdated
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
the benefit is that you have increased output.

I can now use the same strategy towards a worker.  I can say that in order for my products to become cheaper so that he can buy more of them, I propose that he works 20% more time for a slightly lower wage.  The logic is the same.  If the guy tells me: "hey, you propose me to work more and earn less ?" I will answer him: "but my dear, your benefit is that you have increased your output" Smiley


Its a macro concept not micro

I will tell him that too Smiley


Seriously, the argument is totally flawed, because it goes against Say's law.  Say's law says that all beneficiaries of all the production factors of a product make exactly the amount of money necessary to buy up all of the production, if they want to.

Consider an extreme case, where industry is totally automatized and labor is worth zilch, because there is no labor needed any more.  According to your argument, in such a case, that industry wouldn't find any customers, because labor wage (macro) is zero.

Nothing is less true.  In fact, all the sales go in the pockets of the share holders, so THEY can buy the products.

In a totally automated industry, the industry will make products for the share holders, which will be their sole customers, and which will be totally served by all the fully automated  production.  Without one single dollar of wages.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
the benefit is that you have increased output.

I can now use the same strategy towards a worker.  I can say that in order for my products to become cheaper so that he can buy more of them, I propose that he works 20% more time for a slightly lower wage.  The logic is the same.  If the guy tells me: "hey, you propose me to work more and earn less ?" I will answer him: "but my dear, your benefit is that you have increased your output" Smiley


Its a macro concept not micro
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
the benefit is that you have increased output.

I can now use the same strategy towards a worker.  I can say that in order for my products to become cheaper so that he can buy more of them, I propose that he works 20% more time for a slightly lower wage.  As such, my labor cost will be lower, and I can lower the price of my products more, so that he can  The logic is the same.  If the guy tells me: "hey, you propose me to work more and earn less ?" I will answer him: "but my dear, your benefit is that you have increased your output" Smiley
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
But I don't think you understand what Socialist means.  Doesn't mean to transform social relationship of humans or making them want things other than their own interest.

Then what was the purpose of all that internal communist propaganda concerning the common good ?

What does that have to do with the meaning of Socialism?  All propaganda including free market ones is for the common good
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
If you want break it down to economics.  If you exploit labor like this where will you get consumers?  When people have decent wages they can become consumers so in the long run the producers will enjoy more wealth.  

This is also such a crazy statement that comes back very often: one should pay its employees a lot of money, so that they can pay a lot of money for your products Smiley

The secret is that you don't want MONEY from your consumers, you want to get *goods and services* from others.  Money is just an intermediate thing.  You produce, because you want to get production from others, not money.  If you can get the production from your labourers for less, then by all means, that's what you should do.  

Imagine: I have material costs of 100.-, I pay 100.- wages, and I have then produced 100 products which I sell for 3.- each, so I make 100.- benefit.

What advantage would I have, by paying 160.- wages, and sell now 20 products more (namely, the 20 products that my employees can buy with their extra salary) ?  Because now, in fact, I have a cost also of 120.

In the end, I will now sell 120 products at 3 each, have a material cost of 120, and pay 160 wages.  My benefit is now 360 - 160 - 120 = 80.

I LOWERED my profit from 100 earlier on to only 80, by paying my workers more so that they come and consume my products and by selling more.

There is nothing to be won by increasing wages for people to consume more.  Because you have to pay the other production factors too (in our case, the "material costs")


Thats' what the empirics show.  Just look at the postwar times nothing unusual about this idea
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
If you want break it down to economics.  If you exploit labor like this where will you get consumers?  When people have decent wages they can become consumers so in the long run the producers will enjoy more wealth.  

This is also such a crazy statement that comes back very often: one should pay its employees a lot of money, so that they can pay a lot of money for your products Smiley

The secret is that you don't want MONEY from your consumers, you want to get *goods and services* from others.  Money is just an intermediate thing.  You produce, because you want to get production from others, not money.  If you can get the production from your labourers for less, then by all means, that's what you should do.  

Imagine: I have material costs of 100.-, I pay 100.- wages, and I have then produced 100 products which I sell for 3.- each, so I make 100.- benefit.

What advantage would I have, by paying 160.- wages, and sell now 20 products more (namely, the 20 products that my employees can buy with their extra salary) ?  Because now, in fact, I have a cost also of 120.

In the end, I will now sell 120 products at 3 each, have a material cost of 120, and pay 160 wages.  My benefit is now 360 - 160 - 120 = 80.

I LOWERED my profit from 100 earlier on to only 80, by paying my workers more so that they come and consume my products and by selling more.

There is nothing to be won by increasing wages for people to consume more.  Because you have to pay the other production factors too (in our case, the "material costs")

the benefit is that you have increased output.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Firing it up
It depends cases. Normally in order to encourage people, inflation should be required, but what is the most suitable annual rate? Currently there is no right answer, i'm afraid.

In my place, 5% is a typical rate, however with other schemes, it possibly not be the case.





hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
But I don't think you understand what Socialist means.  Doesn't mean to transform social relationship of humans or making them want things other than their own interest.

Then what was the purpose of all that internal communist propaganda concerning the common good ?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
If you want break it down to economics.  If you exploit labor like this where will you get consumers?  When people have decent wages they can become consumers so in the long run the producers will enjoy more wealth.  

This is also such a crazy statement that comes back very often: one should pay its employees a lot of money, so that they can pay a lot of money for your products Smiley

The secret is that you don't want MONEY from your consumers, you want to get *goods and services* from others.  Money is just an intermediate thing.  You produce, because you want to get production from others, not money.  If you can get the production from your labourers for less, then by all means, that's what you should do.  

Imagine: I have material costs of 100.-, I pay 100.- wages, and I have then produced 100 products which I sell for 3.- each, so I make 100.- benefit.

What advantage would I have, by paying 160.- wages, and sell now 20 products more (namely, the 20 products that my employees can buy with their extra salary) ?  Because now, in fact, I have a cost also of 120.

In the end, I will now sell 120 products at 3 each, have a material cost of 120, and pay 160 wages.  My benefit is now 360 - 160 - 120 = 80.

I LOWERED my profit from 100 earlier on to only 80, by paying my workers more so that they come and consume my products and by selling more.

There is nothing to be won by increasing wages for people to consume more.  Because you have to pay the other production factors too (in our case, the "material costs")
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Ask yourself, would you rather China had not turn "communist"? could the world handle 2 billion Americans more?


If the world can't handle 2 billion Americans more, then this will not happen.  If it cannot happen, it won't happen.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Re:  Ethics.

Clearly paying a starving person a bowl of rice to work 16 hrs a day is unethical.

Then don't give him a bowl of rice Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
It means the ownership is socialized (owned by the workers) as opposed to owned by capital (owners).  If applied to macro like the Communist experiments of the 20th Cent., then clearly they all failed (with the exception of China)

China got where it got today after they essentially allowed private capital ownership in the late '70s when Deng Xiaoping took power and began carrying out significant economic reforms. They switched from a planned economy to a mixed economy with an open market. In short, "Communist" China is as Communist as any other Capitalist country out there...

Ask yourself, would you rather China had not turn "communist"? could the world handle 2 billion Americans more?

Chinese mentality is very far from the Western one. Unlike Americans, they are not much interested in bringing their moral values ("democracy") unto the rest of the world. If they didn't try to conquer the world in the five millenia of their previous history, why should they now?
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
It means the ownership is socialized (owned by the workers) as opposed to owned by capital (owners).  If applied to macro like the Communist experiments of the 20th Cent., then clearly they all failed (with the exception of China)

China got where it got today after they essentially allowed private capital ownership in the late '70s when Deng Xiaoping took power and began carrying out significant economic reforms. They switched from a planned economy to a mixed economy with an open market. In short, "Communist" China is as Communist as any other Capitalist country out there...

Ask yourself, would you rather China had not turn "communist"? could the world handle 2 billion Americans more?
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
How does this lead you to say social systems cant work?

I never said that social systems can't work.  The confusion comes maybe because I said that most social engineering is based upon that misunderstanding.  Social engineering.  Wanting to transform the social relationships of humans, like communism or the like.  Wanting people to want other things than their own interest.


I'm not a Socialist or Communist so don't mistake what I post as a proponent for Socialism or Communism.  But I don't think you understand what Socialist means.  Doesn't mean to transform social relationship of humans or making them want things other than their own interest.

It means the ownership is socialized (owned by the workers) as opposed to owned by capital (owners).  If applied to macro like the Communist experiments of the 20th Cent., then clearly they all failed (with the exception of China)

But it can be applied to micro as well.  I.e. co-ops vs corporations.  Socialized healthcare (in Sweden, Canada, Uk, etc..).  Social Security in USA.  And so on

come to think of it internal corporate structure is centrally planed (he board) in capitalist countries while in socialists more free as if the required randomness is pushed inside.

so shouldn't in the free market all companies operate as Steam does? how do you explain it?
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
It means the ownership is socialized (owned by the workers) as opposed to owned by capital (owners).  If applied to macro like the Communist experiments of the 20th Cent., then clearly they all failed (with the exception of China)

China got where it got today after they essentially allowed private capital ownership in the late '70s when Deng Xiaoping took power and began carrying out significant economic reforms. They switched from a planned economy to a mixed economy with an open market (a dig at central planning). In short, "Communist" China is as Communist as any other Capitalist country out there...
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
Those problems you described are the problems that only now we can address, IT infrastructure can provide communication of ideas, distributed concesus, simulation, risk analysis, this is why i claim there is no proper central planning deployed yet
Inventors are not motivated by money, just as people are not motivated by money. Sure they need them to cover basic needs but what drives them to excel is social status.

They are motivated by celebrity and by an over inflated ego.  So they would over-sell their invention.  The proof of the pudding is the eating.  There's no way to know (except in very stupid cases) whether an idea really works, in all the details, until you've done it.   Thinking that you can simulate an economic activity with all the details is an illusion.  You don't know if the guy you've paid to do the testing is going to do his job correctly.  You don't know if the machine you ordered will work exactly as promised on the contract.  Whether it will be delivered on time.  There are so many little details between an idea and an actual product on the shelves, that it is only when it is really done that you really know how much resources it used.  On the other hand, you can have inventions that are not completely understood by their inventors themselves, but they work.  They would not be able to convince you, but they believe in it.  They might be right or wrong.

The only way to make sure that what people claim, is true, is by making put them their money where their mouth is.

And then there's something that no central planning can ever achieve: the whimsicalness of people's desires.  What would sell like crazy today, would not interest any one any more tomorrow.   You see that with children: one day there's a buzz and everybody wants Pokemon monster cards.  A few years later, nobody wants them any more.  Nevertheless, on the moment itself, they are a source of immense satisfaction for the kids.   How is your central planning going to find that out ?

Quote
Oh and about the nash eq debate, economy had never ever be in a nash eq, and i just wanted to show you why that is. The equilibrium is the laser dot, and the economy is the cat

Of course.  Like nothing is ever truly in thermodynamic equilibrium.  But that's not a reason to say that, as anyway things are not in an equilibrium, I'm constructing my house on the top of a pin head, as equilibrium is in any case an illusion.

Nobody denies the merits of prototyping, it doesnt need to be in the production line to determine the product parameters, nor does the public hold the ultimate test on success or failure.
If enough data are available short term forecasting is accurate enough, note central planning models having less entropy is easier to simulate than free market (i think)

art, fashion, games and trending items are true impossible to plan, but they are thankfully candidates for self-production (3d printing), ie Cards against humanity, designs are immaterial anyway, custom manufacturing is a good thing.
So what about million dollar holywood movies? art always required funding, I dont regard it as a commodity or product, artists should be funded though, not art-projects maybe the same could apply on inventors, angel investing can be done centrally too.


hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
How does this lead you to say social systems cant work?

I never said that social systems can't work.  The confusion comes maybe because I said that most social engineering is based upon that misunderstanding.  Social engineering.  Wanting to transform the social relationships of humans, like communism or the like.  Wanting people to want other things than their own interest.


I'm not a Socialist or Communist so don't mistake what I post as a proponent for Socialism or Communism.  But I don't think you understand what Socialist means.  Doesn't mean to transform social relationship of humans or making them want things other than their own interest.

It means the ownership is socialized (owned by the workers) as opposed to owned by capital (owners).  If applied to macro like the Communist experiments of the 20th Cent., then clearly they all failed (with the exception of China)

But it can be applied to micro as well.  I.e. co-ops vs corporations.  Socialized healthcare (in Sweden, Canada, Uk, etc..).  Social Security in USA.  And so on


Re:  Ethics.

Clearly paying a starving person a bowl of rice to work 16 hrs a day is unethical.  If you want break it down to economics.  If you exploit labor like this where will you get consumers?  When people have decent wages they can become consumers so in the long run the producers will enjoy more wealth.  
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