Is ISIS Proof that Islam has Failed at Peace? - page 4.

Spendulus

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Quote from: RodeoX on July 21, 2015, 11:55:45 AM

Quote from: Spendulus on July 20, 2015, 03:45:33 PM

I rather like the analogy, but still suggest you use the commonly used term "ISIS."

And if the "worst" of the two religions is respectively Westboro and ISIS, I know which this here atheist likes better.

Yeah, I would rank ISIS a million times worse. As uncouth as they are, the W.B.C. congregation is just expressing an opinion peacefully.
I use DAESH for a few reasons. Most of my experience with them has been in the middle east and they are always called DEASH there. But the main reason is that calling them ISIS is showing support for them. In the Islamic state it is forbidden to refer to them as DAESH. The punishment for this is that "your tongue will be cut from your mouth." They hate being called DAESH because it is a play on words in Arabic. It is the acronym for ISIS, but also sound like you are saying the word meaning to trample or crush under foot. Arab culture is weird about feet and this term is considered very disrespectful. As this war plays out over the next 10-20 years I think you will see this term replacing ISIS or IS or ISIL. All of which acknowledge the existence of the Caliphate. For me they are not a caliphate and are better described as the ones who trample everything.

Quote from: jaysabi on July 20, 2015, 07:45:01 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on July 20, 2015, 10:43:05 AM

Yes. And the westboro church is absolute, unequivocal and undeniable proof that Christianity is a violent, bigoted cult and nothing more. Good point OP!

Are you being facetious or serious? I can't tell if your tone is sarcastic or not.

I was being sarcastic. As pointed out above, I was referencing the logical fallacy of making a rule from one example.

RE the DAESH explanation, quite interesting. I refer though to the fact that literally, you refer to DAESH and likely most readers are simply clueless as to what you refer to. Maybe something like DAESH(aka ISIS) is called for, lol....

Falconer

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Seems most muslims don't admit ISIS is Islam, then I think there is no relationship with ISIS is Islam. Its same situation with native American slaughtering by European in 17th century imo.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: Spendulus on July 20, 2015, 03:45:33 PM

I rather like the analogy, but still suggest you use the commonly used term "ISIS."

And if the "worst" of the two religions is respectively Westboro and ISIS, I know which this here atheist likes better.

Yeah, I would rank ISIS a million times worse. As uncouth as they are, the W.B.C. congregation is just expressing an opinion peacefully.
I use DAESH for a few reasons. Most of my experience with them has been in the middle east and they are always called DEASH there. But the main reason is that calling them ISIS is showing support for them. In the Islamic state it is forbidden to refer to them as DAESH. The punishment for this is that "your tongue will be cut from your mouth." They hate being called DAESH because it is a play on words in Arabic. It is the acronym for ISIS, but also sound like you are saying the word meaning to trample or crush under foot. Arab culture is weird about feet and this term is considered very disrespectful. As this war plays out over the next 10-20 years I think you will see this term replacing ISIS or IS or ISIL. All of which acknowledge the existence of the Caliphate. For me they are not a caliphate and are better described as the ones who trample everything.

Quote from: jaysabi on July 20, 2015, 07:45:01 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on July 20, 2015, 10:43:05 AM

Yes. And the westboro church is absolute, unequivocal and undeniable proof that Christianity is a violent, bigoted cult and nothing more. Good point OP!

Are you being facetious or serious? I can't tell if your tone is sarcastic or not.

I was being sarcastic. As pointed out above, I was referencing the logical fallacy of making a rule from one example.

jaysabi

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Quote from: RodeoX on July 20, 2015, 10:43:05 AM

Yes. And the westboro church is absolute, unequivocal and undeniable proof that Christianity is a violent, bigoted cult and nothing more. Good point OP!

Are you being facetious or serious? I can't tell if your tone is sarcastic or not.

Spendulus

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Quote from: RodeoX on July 20, 2015, 02:49:26 PM

Quote from: Spendulus on July 20, 2015, 02:25:56 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on July 20, 2015, 10:43:05 AM

Yes. And the westboro church is absolute, unequivocal and undeniable proof that Christianity is a violent, bigoted cult and nothing more. Good point OP!

Parsing this, I assume you took the OP, noticed it contained a logical error, "the exception proves the rule",

applied the identical rule to Christianity...

I would guess that the guys in the Westboro church claim to be the only people who really represent Christianity, just like DAESH claims to be the only true representatives of Allah. In reality they are both fringe element groups that embarrass the majority of good people who just want to pray in peace and raise their children.

I rather like the analogy, but still suggest you use the commonly used term "ISIS."

And if the "worst" of the two religions is respectively Westboro and ISIS, I know which this here atheist likes better.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: Spendulus on July 20, 2015, 02:25:56 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on July 20, 2015, 10:43:05 AM

Yes. And the westboro church is absolute, unequivocal and undeniable proof that Christianity is a violent, bigoted cult and nothing more. Good point OP!

Parsing this, I assume you took the OP, noticed it contained a logical error, "the exception proves the rule",

applied the identical rule to Christianity...

I would guess that the guys in the Westboro church claim to be the only people who really represent Christianity, just like DAESH claims to be the only true representatives of Allah. In reality they are both fringe element groups that embarrass the majority of good people who just want to pray in peace and raise their children.

Spendulus

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Quote from: RodeoX on July 20, 2015, 10:43:05 AM

Yes. And the westboro church is absolute, unequivocal and undeniable proof that Christianity is a violent, bigoted cult and nothing more. Good point OP!

Parsing this, I assume you took the OP, noticed it contained a logical error, "the exception proves the rule",

applied the identical rule to Christianity...

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Yes. And the westboro church is absolute, unequivocal and undeniable proof that Christianity is a violent, bigoted cult and nothing more. Good point OP!

98789

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on July 18, 2015, 12:35:13 AM

Both Islam and Christianity has brought only misery and war to this world. Islam has always used genocide and warfare to gain new followers (especially in South Asia, Middle-East, Balkans and North Africa). Similarly, Christianity has also used genocide (Australia, Americas, South-east Asia.etc), ethnicide and warfare to increase its number of adherents.

Eveyone does that, it is not exclusive to those religions. I do not think pagan Roman Empire conquered peacefully all the lands they got to own; and, what about communist party in China taking over mainland? Certainly no murders there, I guess. Even the US (yes, it may be a mainly christian country, but they are not exactly preaching God's word around the world) or the extinct Soviet Union.

saddampbuh

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isis is proof that moderate muslim countries fail at defending themselves from jewmerican backed jihadis with a limitless supply of weapons and money from billionaire puppet arab monarchies

socialist afghanistan overthrown by cia controlled mujahideen terrorists
arab nationalist iraq overthrown by jewmerican armies
african nationalist libya overthrown by jewmerican bombs and isis benghazi allies
syria, the best place in middle east for christians to live and the last arab country to not surrender to israel, currently in the process of being overthrown by the same dark forces

you bastards turned these secular peaceful countries into mad max world and now scratching your empty goyim heads wondering why a group of thugs you gave weapons and money to has taken control

jaysabi

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There haven't been any input by the Islam defenders of the other threads here, which is disappointing. The question I find most interesting is: from their perspective, why do so many people who self-identify as Muslim find the violent message of ISIS so appealing, when those teaching are so obviously not Islamic? Do subscribing to those beliefs make them non-Muslim?

Spendulus

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Quote from: Sourgummies on July 18, 2015, 11:09:17 AM

@Spendulus

Below is my response,this really is to help me remember what I wrote as I respond. Grin

4. Mass killers tend to want the attention,the media always wracks up a total to compare other shootings against like its a challenge. You get into most of these sickos heads they are looking to out do the last guy. Suddenly a disturbed teen can be coaxed online into joining a cause and lashing out with a purpose,instead of not getting the keys to the car on Friday type killing spree. The draw is one of the most interesting dynamics to me and what makes these people go over that have no connection to the Muslim faith.
Really blame the media for sending up a beacon for these people to unite under.

To be honest I am still having a hard time connecting what I said to how you responded with,but that could be just a bias at play on my part.
You seem to take issue with the part I underlined,so I will focus on that.

Without the media how would so many people know about Isis to begin with? Media is controlled by a very small and elite group of individuals that are swayed by the government when needed. Its like they are allowed to push agendas on the public as long as they buy into the government machine when needed. Do not see how media can not be blamed. The problem is human beings tend to be moved in flocks and its old programming that is manipulated against us. How often do we have a craving for something and no idea why or how it got in our heads! Can go through history and see how the message is controlled or abused to get us on side.
The rape analogy is different because there is not a direct connection from miniskirt to rape. Isis has a direct connection to killing.

Hey I could be wrong and appreciate you making me think about my view.

Feature / aspect of reality AS RELATES TO criminal action

Miniskirt / Girl Rape

Media Exposure / Innocent victims ISIS terror actions

Because there actually have been trials in which the lewd provocative appearance of women was claimed to be responsible for their being attacked and raped (this still occurs in backwards Middle Eastern countries).

Logical fallacy - "Blame the girl" / "Blame the media"

Excuse "rape" / "terror"

Sourgummies

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Never ending parties are what Im into.

@Spendulus

Below is my response,this really is to help me remember what I wrote as I respond. Grin

4. Mass killers tend to want the attention,the media always wracks up a total to compare other shootings against like its a challenge. You get into most of these sickos heads they are looking to out do the last guy. Suddenly a disturbed teen can be coaxed online into joining a cause and lashing out with a purpose,instead of not getting the keys to the car on Friday type killing spree. The draw is one of the most interesting dynamics to me and what makes these people go over that have no connection to the Muslim faith.
Really blame the media for sending up a beacon for these people to unite under.

To be honest I am still having a hard time connecting what I said to how you responded with,but that could be just a bias at play on my part.
You seem to take issue with the part I underlined,so I will focus on that.

Without the media how would so many people know about Isis to begin with? Media is controlled by a very small and elite group of individuals that are swayed by the government when needed. Its like they are allowed to push agendas on the public as long as they buy into the government machine when needed. Do not see how media can not be blamed. The problem is human beings tend to be moved in flocks and its old programming that is manipulated against us. How often do we have a craving for something and no idea why or how it got in our heads! Can go through history and see how the message is controlled or abused to get us on side.
The rape analogy is different because there is not a direct connection from miniskirt to rape. Isis has a direct connection to killing.

Hey I could be wrong and appreciate you making me think about my view.

Spendulus

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on July 18, 2015, 12:35:13 AM

Both Islam and Christianity has brought only misery and war to this world. Islam has always used genocide and warfare to gain new followers (especially in South Asia, Middle-East, Balkans and North Africa). Similarly, Christianity has also used genocide (Australia, Americas, South-east Asia.etc), ethnicide and warfare to increase its number of adherents.

That's a totally ridiculous statement.

Something like "one unfortunate side effect..." qualified by "may have increased" ...

but you didn't do that.

"always used genocide..."

What a crock of shit.

bryant.coleman

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Both Islam and Christianity has brought only misery and war to this world. Islam has always used genocide and warfare to gain new followers (especially in South Asia, Middle-East, Balkans and North Africa). Similarly, Christianity has also used genocide (Australia, Americas, South-east Asia.etc), ethnicide and warfare to increase its number of adherents.

Sourgummies

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Quote from: Spendulus on July 17, 2015, 11:22:58 PM

Quote from: Sourgummies on July 17, 2015, 10:26:00 PM

Quote from: Spendulus on July 17, 2015, 09:41:02 PM

Quote from: Sourgummies on July 17, 2015, 05:29:46 PM

.....
4. Any faction that is seeking power will take all advantages they can get. If you take away these labels we kill a good chunk of the problem. Instead of lone wolf Isis attacks in Europe or America we would have mass killings by unhealthy people. Its like we have given these people a flag to fly under and it provides them with a validation to proceed.....

Like the girl wearing a mini skirt being responsible for the rape that she gets?

Think you are misunderstanding something I wrote as I do not follow the point of your question. If you explain,I will answer.

The purpose of the mini skirt is for a woman to attract attention.

Mass media focuses on the most dramatic, violent of current events to attract attention.

Thus (according to you) it is the "fault" of "us" because "our media gives attention to the killers" that they do it.

Similarly, it is the fault of the woman with a miniskirt that she gets raped.

Both are the same logical fallacy and mistake cause and effect.

Both incorrectly reverse victim and criminal.

I think you are jumping a little off the map with this one. You did not quote anything about media and you are comparing my post to being sympathetic to rapists.
Not sure how to take that. Grin

Will write a response in the morning as I have been up for 19 hours and need to sleep. Promise to respond.

Spendulus

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Quote from: Sourgummies on July 17, 2015, 10:26:00 PM

Quote from: Spendulus on July 17, 2015, 09:41:02 PM

Quote from: Sourgummies on July 17, 2015, 05:29:46 PM

.....
4. Any faction that is seeking power will take all advantages they can get. If you take away these labels we kill a good chunk of the problem. Instead of lone wolf Isis attacks in Europe or America we would have mass killings by unhealthy people. Its like we have given these people a flag to fly under and it provides them with a validation to proceed.....

Like the girl wearing a mini skirt being responsible for the rape that she gets?

Think you are misunderstanding something I wrote as I do not follow the point of your question. If you explain,I will answer.

The purpose of the mini skirt is for a woman to attract attention.

Mass media focuses on the most dramatic, violent of current events to attract attention.

Thus (according to you) it is the "fault" of "us" because "our media gives attention to the killers" that they do it.

Similarly, it is the fault of the woman with a miniskirt that she gets raped.

Both are the same logical fallacy and mistake cause and effect.

Both incorrectly reverse victim and criminal.

Sourgummies

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Never ending parties are what Im into.

Quote from: Spendulus on July 17, 2015, 09:41:02 PM

Quote from: Sourgummies on July 17, 2015, 05:29:46 PM

.....
4. Any faction that is seeking power will take all advantages they can get. If you take away these labels we kill a good chunk of the problem. Instead of lone wolf Isis attacks in Europe or America we would have mass killings by unhealthy people. Its like we have given these people a flag to fly under and it provides them with a validation to proceed.....

Like the girl wearing a mini skirt being responsible for the rape that she gets?

Think you are misunderstanding something I wrote as I do not follow the point of your question. If you explain,I will answer.

Sourgummies

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Never ending parties are what Im into.

Quote from: jaysabi on July 17, 2015, 08:22:54 PM

Quote from: Sourgummies on July 17, 2015, 05:29:46 PM

Quote from: jaysabi on July 17, 2015, 04:15:55 PM

Well, for number 2, how do drone attacks affect ISIS warring against other Muslims? While drone attacks may give them reason to hate America, I don't see how that translates into butchering, raping, enslaving other Muslims, which constitutes a lot of their crimes currently.

Your notion on point 4 is interesting to me, that we are providing a flag for them to fly under by identifying them as a group. However, I would counter that we identify them as a group because they identify themselves as a group. I think absent our characterization of them, they would still be out there acting exactly as they currently are.

In regards to 4A, there are very many offshoots of Christianity, but so far as I know, none of them are preaching death to nonbelievers or currently murdering Christians of a sect they consider to be heretical. While that may be a part of their history, is ISIS then just several hundred years behind in their evolution as a society, or is a unique instance unrelated to how Christian sects warred against nonbelievers previously?

2. To be honest I reread the original question for 2 and misread it. So the drone attacks answer does not make any sense,my bad.

4. Mass killers tend to want the attention,the media always wracks up a total to compare other shootings against like its a challenge. You get into most of these sickos heads they are looking to out do the last guy. Suddenly a disturbed teen can be coaxed online into joining a cause and lashing out with a purpose,instead of not getting the keys to the car on Friday type killing spree. The draw is one of the most interesting dynamics to me and what makes these people go over that have no connection to the Muslim faith.
Really blame the media for sending up a beacon for these people to unite under.

4a. Well we could go back a couple hundred years to find that but we are talking about a newer religion than Christianity so the bloodletting is still new. Christians just went about business in a different way. I could stretch and say Ireland(Catholics vs. Protestants) but I think thats a stretch to make a point.

Spendulus

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Quote from: Sourgummies on July 17, 2015, 05:29:46 PM

.....
4. Any faction that is seeking power will take all advantages they can get. If you take away these labels we kill a good chunk of the problem. Instead of lone wolf Isis attacks in Europe or America we would have mass killings by unhealthy people. Its like we have given these people a flag to fly under and it provides them with a validation to proceed.....

Like the girl wearing a mini skirt being responsible for the rape that she gets?

Topic: Is ISIS Proof that Islam has Failed at Peace? - page 4. (Read 4697 times)