Topic: Is it possible to destroy Monero (XMR)? - page 6. (Read 10399 times)

You could replace Monero with Bitcoin in your sentence above, going by that logic.

I feel that Monero will forever be under attack, there will always be smaller coins where the users amase mega cheap stacks and then they are incentivised to wage war against the bigger coin.

Good discussion guys.. couldn't say better so here are some great quotes that i found interesting...

I really would rather not delve back into the whole BBR vs XMR argument again; the bickering is getting tiresome and I'm a supporter of cryptonote in general. --  it's a plain fact in both cases certain entities were operating at some advantage at some point in time. It's not surprising whatsoever.

With that being said, how can you say this of XMR launch without being disingenuous?
"It is just so precious. And never before happened as well."
"Monero's history is special. "

As far as I see, It's just a false statement- The gap between the fastest BBR miners and the average BBR miner, compared with the gap between the fastest XMR miner and the average XMR miner was smaller for some time. Considering the emission rate differences, less of the total BBR supply was up for grabs to those in an advantaged position too.

Sure, this

https://github.com/NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo/bitmonero/commit/3cc45e9324a402aee91e2f46861b2ca393d711aa was a slight oversight, because took a while after launch to spot. It would of been ideal if the proof-of-work had a few eyes over it prior to the coin launch,

Reference:


But to the credit of XMR dev team, the fix was pushed less than 30 minutes after it was spotted.   I understand it was something which was introduced by TFT, and monero developers were not familiar with the code at that stage, when they "relaunched" it under a new name. It is not like they themselves crippled it, on the contrary they managed to fix it after a tip-off.


Personally, my opinion is In the grand scheme of things it's barely a hiccup at all and pales in comparison to some of the shenanigans that went on during early BTC days - even forgetting satoshi, ( artforz owned 30% of net hash from early days- continued on to run gpus, fpgas and s-asics, before anyone else and then proceeded to launch crippled scrypt- have absolutely no doubt he knew the weaknesses in that implementation) for instance.

As you say it's also pretty well documented a lot of XMR changed hands in the early days from such miners taking profit from their advantaged positions, and those are freely disbursed in the market very early on. -- I do remember buying some XMR in the OTC days prior to it being listed on the exchange, I got a small quantity, checked back and the price had already shot up 10x. There really was not an opportunity to buy in big quantities as significantly lower prices than the general populous that I saw,  So yes, people were paying more or less the same price for these coins which is a good thing indeed.

Thank you for this elaborate answer! I'll make sure to read it.

People do tend to forget that coins are not stocks.  It's a great point.

Is it possible to destroy Monero?  I recently quoted Warren Buffet in a thread.  Now I'm going to go with a philosophical predecessor of his, Benjamin Graham.  Graham said that in the short term, markets are voting machines.  In the long term, markets are weighing machines.  In the short term, people can have opinions, and FUD can rule the day.  Price can be driven down, and that may be happening with Monero. (Or it may not.)

In the long run, though, if Monero has true advantages and innovation, the short-term price "destruction" that results from FUD, hatred, etc... simply gives us a buying opportunity.

This is where it's important to realize that cryptos are NOT stocks.  They are MORE resilient and LESS subject to pressures like bankruptcy, de-listing, etc...

My take is that the advantages of 1) talented and deep team of devs, 2) fair launch, certainly compared to many cryptos, 3) innovation with regard to anonymity, 4) maybe even whale support--in the long run, I think the weighing machine theory makes it unlikely that Monero will be destroyed.

Makes me want to accumulate more, in fact, because the short-term price pressures might make buying more attractive.

From our OP -

Announcements

September 7 - Block 202612 attack patch released, please update immediately
September 4 - Block 202612 attack, technical update
September 4 - Block 202612 attack, update 1
August 25 - Blockchain Spam Attack post-mortem, part II
August 24 - Blockchain Spam Attack post-mortem, part I

With regards to dga's article, it's important to read it thoroughly to understand that there are no negative implications for Monero: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8578519

In my mind, the fairest launch mechanisms of any alt in recent memory was demonstrated by CounterParty.

Bitcoins were destroyed in exchange for shares.  No single entity had a guaranteed opportunity to earn at that stage since the raised funds went into the ether, instead of to a marketing foundation or pockets of the devs. The burn period was clearly enforced by a protocol, not an entity which could arbitarily adjust the time limit to invest, the amount allowed to be invested, or the number of buyers. It also had the side-effect of decreasing the total amount of BTC that could possibly circulate.

More detailed write-up is linked here: https://www.counterparty.co/why-proof-of-burn/

Rpietila, could you please elaborate on the network attacks against Monero? A summary or a thread where I can read it up would be good. I had no idea that the network is that vulnerable.
I personally am staggered as well by the hate against Monero when it has such a slow price increase and calm movement. Compared to BTCDark for example which has exploded in price recently and of which I am still trying to find any solid criticisms but it looks like nobody even tries to take a serious look at the coin it's all pump, pump, pump.
People here have talked about the large problems monero has but what are these? I've only ever read about the potential large blockchain bloat, nothing else? That would be hugely positive imho.

Edit: Oh right, and there was some article about a guy who mined like $150k of monero with amazon or something.

Fallacy again using the modal verb "should". This is a tactic of the XMR people.

"if something should happen, but has not yet happened, there is a good chance that it will happen."

There is no "should" about it, no reason to believe it will do anything at all. You are bestowing it with an "end", like it can be measured. But this is impossible in crypto.

Actually, scrub the last comment. Of 1000 coins, only a handful have made a wave, and only bitcoin and perhaps litecoin have had a meaningful impact in market terms and popularity.

So if we throw "should" about, we have a duty (should) to use it properly. XMR should crash and burn, or just muddle along or disappear.

Exactly. There never was a perior where you could have created value out of nothing. In private placements (pre-IPO) we do it all the time. Company is owned by its directors who typically paid not much for their own shares. Then investors come and it's marked up +10000%. This is fine and pretty much the only way to do things in that world. But coins are not stocks, and doing it with a coin hurts the coin.

The devs have had the same chances to buy it as anyone else. The devs' average buyins are in the same BTC0.004 range. The devs own a lot compared to their total stash, but none of them is even listed in the TOP-5 holders. This is rare. This is precious. This bodes well for the economy because it creates the possibility for those interested in economy to take the leadership, which is lacking in nerd-controlled coins.

All I know about XMR is that supposedly they have anon.   What OTHER features??   All I hear about XMR these days are the problems above.   Please do tell us that aren't investor nor expert in XMR....

What are these features you talk about?  No gui wallet, huge blockchain, forking from attack, etc?

You really haven't been around the block much right?  The only coin you ever mined was XMR?

OMG XMR people will never get it...  see how that work?

Dude... he said that the dev has under 1% coin...  That's the condition he mentioned as one of the BEST thing about XMR.   MANY altcoins where the dev has no premine nor instamine...  that's the point.  It's not only XMR that have that "fair" condition.

And how do you ABSOLUTELY know for certain that the Monero dev have under 1% of the coin?   Do you have proof that the dev have no other address that they mined with at the beginning nor any other friends that mined at launch?   

Yeah, that's the standard criticism

Probably your point is believed by many, but NXT is still doing well. NXT is a bit like company stock in the platform, so I don't think too many people care now. If the distro 'problem' was going to dent NXT it would have by now.

Point I wanted to make was monero and NXT are both accepted by most people, that's why they're at the top of CMC, not the bottom.

If both still exist in 3 years (which I think they will) you will own both. I'll bet you on that.

Yeah most people think NXT IPO was bad, but IMO it was great, but it can only happen once. No other PoS coin will ever get away with a coin IPO like BCNext had - too many scams now, too oversubscribed so no upward potential for price, not enough whales created who make things happen etc

NXT distribution was an act of genius, and look, it worked. NXT is thriving.

Some things are so crazy they end up working perfectly, and NXT distribution is one of them. Plenty of people will try and find another method for a PoS distro, but none will ever beat NXT. For mine, the NXT distro worked for two reasons:
1- The IPO had enough detail, and BCNext appeared so weird, that it attracted crypto true believers, people interested in innovation, and the legacy of bitcoin. IPO's since attract greedy people, but NXT IPO was almost like a fundraiser for a mad scientist working on a garage project
2- The whales NXT created mostly accepted their roll, and co-operated to get things done. This was a natural consequence flowing from point 1

It was a stroke of genius. Find a core group of people really interested in crypto, and then make them millionaires, but only if they work together to make NXT viable. No other coin could do this now, because everyone wants to think the next IPO will make them rich. The NXT whales didn't join NXT IPO to be rich, but that's what happened. Genius, but a one off, and never to be repeated.

edit: I think NXT is very relevant to monero, same point risto made - fair distribution, enough whales, dev owns small stack

It's really difficult for me to think of PoW coins and PoS coins in the same way.

Only successful PoS are "smart coins" that can do things.  Not coins of value.  It's really tough for me to even think about NXT and XMR or BBR and compare them.

No one can really answer your question since we're not sitting in the devs house watching what he's doing.  I do know that 100% of Qora was distributed to something like 150 investors via an IPO.  But for all we know, the dev could have bought in as well.  Frankly, it makes me nervous if a dev doesn't have a sizable stake in their own coin as I don't see them being as married to the long term success of the coin if they don't.

You've gotten a bit off topic here lol