Topic: Is POW systematically doomed to get a huge monster in its midst? (Read 2731 times)

LOL,
No , they won't , not for long.
Small operations lost the ability to make a profit mining bitcoin years ago.
The electricity draw alone will alert the authorities to any bitcoin PoW miner. See FYI below.
All PoW operations grow too large to hide, only proof of stake coins could hide and never be found, but for PoW hiding is impossible once their price rises high enough.  
It is one of the failures of PoW design, get large or get out.

The Fact that special permits are required to draw that much power also escapes you.
Allocation of those permits is what the Governments will use to enslave the miners to their dominance.

So the Governments can denied those permits and cause bitcoin to die from unprofitably
or allow those permits and control the miners (telling them to not include transactions from unapproved sources).  

Sorry it is Checkmate against bitcoin either way.  

FYI:
https://cointelegraph.com/news/chinese-police-arrest-bitcoin-miner-who-stole-150-mw-of-electricity
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2469854/internet/bitcoin-miners-busted--police-confuse-bitcoin-power-usage-for-pot-farm.html
https://www.ccn.com/russian-police-build-case-against-cryptocurrency-mining-farm-organizers/
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mbk7wy/how-much-energy-growing-weed-vs-mining-bitcoin

Premise:

Conclusion:
Nope, with that premise, the conclusion can be different.

There will be more small-home ASIC miner, someone somewhere in his basement will continue to mine bitcoin.
China is kicking ASIC Miners then they will operate somewhere in their secret basements

I guess you don't read the news , where Utilities are refusing or charging higher rates to ASIC miners.

I guess you don't understand those miners already have to apply for permits to draw the amount of electricity.

I guess you don't understand that China is literally kicking ASICS Miners out of their country.

Either bitcoin dies or the Government Mandate the so called equilibrium which bitcoin insane energy usage will force to happen.

There are no other futures for it, one of the 3 listed and that is it as long as they use energy wasting PoW, they have no other possible futures.

 

Ever heard of "equilibrium" fella?
Price vs hash-rate will fluctuate in order to reach equilibrium. So point 1 is invalid.
When electricity is limited, the competition then shifts to efficiency. Whoever can design better ASIC will win the battle. So point 2 and 3, are incomplete.
Anyway, this real world is complicated, you don't have to simplify things

That pdf about p versus np won't be his, surely. It's a common name. Sorry I missed it earlier

The Current PoW design is an evolutionary dead end.

It only has few possible outcomes.

1.  Price per coin fails to keep up with input costs required to run the network, in which case the Bitcoin Network Miners cease mining as no profit in it.
     Bitcoin Network then seizes up in a death spiral.

2.  Price per coin continues to rise as the insane energy waste continues, thus causing all ASIC miners to require Government Permits due to their energy requirements.
     At this point , the Governments decide who may be miners, and requires them to block transactions per their government policies.
     (Miners can't steal your coins, but can make certain that you are unable to spend them.)
     Not long after all of the Miners are Government Mandated, their will be a global collusion of what % each approved mining will mine
     and then it is just another government controlled service and the energy usage will be managed at a sustainable rate, by mandating the hash and energy allowed.
     Miners will only be able to make changes/upgrades when government policy allows. But since hash % will be fixed, energy waste will be removed as a issue and
     there will no longer be a yearly need for new asics, as their will be no competition , but mandated mining only.

3.   Price per coin continues to rise as the insane energy waste continue, but the energy companies refuse to allow permits for the miners ,   
      and outlaw Bitcoin mining in every country that mining would be profitable, therefore destroying profitability and ensuring the network dies in a death spiral.
      The Beginning of this scenario , will be when they start showing ads of old people suffering in the cold and heat unable to afford their electric bill ,
      because the evil corrupt /greedy bitcoin miners have driven up the energy costs for everyone. 

So 1 & 3 are the death of bitcoin with the price hitting zero
and 2 it becomes a government servant with the miners doing as they are told for a limited/fixed profit margin.

Only an alternative consensus method can evade those 3 scenarios, and being energy efficient is a requirement to evade them.
 

//EDIT:  Changed my mind, my reply to this belongs here, as do any other posts regarding this matter.  His posts were deleted to get this thread back to the original topic, not to have a discussion about him or forum moderation policy.  This thread is about PoW and the chances or possibilities of centralisation.  That's what needs to be discussed in here.

i find it rather odd that this forum is basically the "go to" source of info on btc. and yet mods feel free to just delete any and all info on a whim.

how can accurate decisions be made when the needed info is just deleted.

agree with shelby or not, he had some useful info, as well as the useful info in the replies from others that were deleted also.

and yet the useless shitposters are alive and well.

I understand that they banned his account for circumventing a previous ban -- honestly I wondered why the banhammer didn't strike sooner -- but I also find it problematic that all his posts got deleted. Sure, there were a lot of dubious claims in his writings and at times things got a bit out of hand but it's not like he was spamming the boards like some of the n00b and bounty hunter accounts out there. Aw well. I just hope this case won't get instrumentalized as an example of "censorship on Bitcointalk".

Yes, the same situation with me. It made me read the basics of Bitcoin more because some of his posts were either FUD, or misinformation, or lies that I had to do my own research.

But I am not sure what his agenda was, to spread his ideas so diligently. Haha. Maybe he needed validation.

Yes, I just notice it today... It's too bad that he was banned for "spreading lies about Bitcoin... etc."
I know not all of his posts were great, but at least he has helped me learn a lot about bitcoin within his perspective. Of course, I made my own research, not just blindly take his words as facts.

You are not prepared for decentralization. This is why you will lose (everything).

The point is that it does not matter who I am. But seriously ask Theymos to check my IP address. How did Shelby transport himself to Croatia while he is simultaneously reading this from his account from an IP address in the Philippines.

He and I are not liars. Do you fantasize that he and decentralization are lone, isolated kooks?

So we're just supposed to pretend this isn't yet another one of your accounts and you aren't talking about yourself in the third person right now?

Okay, sure.  


//EDIT:  and no one cares about your proxies either

The archives are incomplete and lack some very important technical points he made in the past 2 weeks which were not archived.

Im not discouraging anyone to stop trying. However, remember that something only works when it's worth several billion dollars over a span of 10+ years, can handle state-sponsored attacks and so on.

I would like to see these alts in the #1 spot taking all the heat. #1 spot = gets the most attacks by hackers and attackers all over the world. Ultimate street creed if you fuck up the #1 crypto, so you must be prepared for that.


What happened?

anyway there is an archive of his posts here:

https://archive.fo/lNr2W

.. that's not cool.

Every post from @anunymint apparently was deleted. The thread is now very difficult to understand because a significant portion of the discussion is missing.

Some of this thread was archived here and here.

I'm not so updated with the latest pos evolutionเล่นไพ่ออนไลน์:p

OR user assisted PoCW 

Fee as in financial fee.. no perpetual motion required, users will obviously have to put something in (probably POW.. who knows.. maybe user based POCW)

T.E.T.O.  (^^ above) has a fee-less POW based chain (DAG) that doesn't centralise the mining (AND no coordinator). It has it's particular issues ( seem like generic DAG issues ).. but it's pretty close. (Congrats to Monstererer2! for coming up with an original design)

IOTA has no fees, doesn't centralise the mining, and almost works, but they have the Coordinator issue.

2 down.. and only an infinite number of different fee-less blockchain algos still to go..

..

It won't take 100 years to crack this nut 

ps - I admit I am also working on a coin (fee-less) - aren't we all !? (win or lose - It's just too much fun)