Is there ever a case where the government could legally steal? - page 3.

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: FirstAscent on March 15, 2013, 03:49:37 PM

Quote from: Richy_T on March 15, 2013, 03:05:47 PM

Government is almost universally inept and inefficient in everything it does.

I'll take that over a system which is fueled solely by the immediate desires of those who don't understand or acknowledge the long term effects.

Sounds like a problem with the people, and not the system... One solved fairly easily with education, and which is just as prevalent in a top-down hierarchical model, and made much worse in such a system.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: Richy_T on March 15, 2013, 03:05:47 PM

Government is almost universally inept and inefficient in everything it does.

I'll take that over a system which is fueled solely by the immediate desires of those who don't understand or acknowledge the long term effects.

Richy_T

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Quote from: FirstAscent on March 15, 2013, 02:07:57 PM

Most of you in this thread suffer from a delusional sense that you are being oppressed by a system that works quite well, instead of a common sense view which acknowledges the utility of it.

'Tis true that those who have it quite well will find something to complain about.

I consider that a toolbox containing several screwdrivers, a hammer and wrenches in different sizes has a lot of utility. Yet no one is forcing one into my hands and making me pay for it.

I deny your utility anyway. Government is almost universally inept and inefficient in everything it does.

FirstAscent

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Most of you in this thread suffer from a delusional sense that you are being oppressed by a system that works quite well, instead of a common sense view which acknowledges the utility of it.

'Tis true that those who have it quite well will find something to complain about.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: MonadTran on March 15, 2013, 06:47:20 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on March 15, 2013, 02:51:36 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on March 14, 2013, 09:54:54 PM

If I create a currency, and use it regularly in my household between residents in my household, and I agree to let you stay in my household, and let you use my currency, and i let you own stuff in my household at my discretion, and I charge you a fee based on transactions you engage in using my currency in my household, is that theft?

That's basically what governments do.

What if bitcoin charged you a fee for engaging in transactions using bitcoins? Is that theft?

What was stated when you moved in was that the rules can change. Take it or leave it. If you were born in my household, play by my rules or leave. Clear enough?

Even if I'm in your household, I still have to play by the rules set up by government. Therefore, according to your logic, you have no household. Everything belongs to the government.

And if you are unlucky enough to be a US citizen, you belong to your government too, 'cause you have to pay your taxes anywhere you go.

Once more. You have no property. You yourself are a property. Are you OK with this? Are you here to defend this system?

You win bonehead of the year award. Talk about totally missing the point. The household is an analogy. When using analogies, the analogue is something which exists instead of the that which it is analogizing to.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: Richy_T on March 15, 2013, 12:25:16 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on March 15, 2013, 11:49:50 AM

Isn't it the Brazilian government that tried privatizing water? It made it illegal to even collect rainwater and drink it. If claiming the rain as yours to sell is not stealing, I don't know what is.

Not Brazil. That little backwater called the USA. http://www.infowars.com/collecting-rainwater-now-illegal-in-many-states-as-big-government-claims-ownership-over-our-water/

(now I feel grubby for linking to that site).

I did not know this. Embarrassed

If I were a resident of one of those states I would publicly break the law. I may get a fine or something, but it would be worth watching a politician go down in flames as he/she tries to defend that law on TV.

Richy_T

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Quote from: RodeoX on March 15, 2013, 11:49:50 AM

Isn't it the Brazilian government that tried privatizing water? It made it illegal to even collect rainwater and drink it. If claiming the rain as yours to sell is not stealing, I don't know what is.

Not Brazil. That little backwater called the USA. http://www.infowars.com/collecting-rainwater-now-illegal-in-many-states-as-big-government-claims-ownership-over-our-water/

(now I feel grubby for linking to that site).

justusranvier

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Quote from: Lethn on March 15, 2013, 12:04:15 PM

I wouldn't say that's stealing but more along the lines of what someone who was a controlling sociopath would propose because anyone with an ounce of sanity would know it's impossible to enforce that kind of law, you may as well try laying claim to oxygen.

Compliance is not the goal of laws; punishment is the goal. Those who make laws do so because they want to control and abuse other people and the laws themselves are just a means to that end.

If an abuser can convince the victim that he has somehow done something wrong to deserve the punishment, the victim's willingness to defend himself will be weak or non-existent, so the abuser is subjected to less risk. Thus the most successful abusers seek to gain control of the law, because the population has been trained to obey it and feels guilty if they are told that they have violated it somehow.

Laws that average people must break in order to survive are perfect because the increase the potential victim pool. The level of credulity in the target population is what determines just how outrageous the laws can be before the targets reject the validity of them and do start to defend themselves.

Lethn

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Quote from: RodeoX on March 15, 2013, 11:49:50 AM

Isn't it the Brazilian government that tried privatizing water? It made it illegal to even collect rainwater and drink it. If claiming the rain as yours to sell is not stealing, I don't know what is.

I wouldn't say that's stealing but more along the lines of what someone who was a controlling sociopath would propose because anyone with an ounce of sanity would know it's impossible to enforce that kind of law, you may as well try laying claim to oxygen.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Isn't it the Brazilian government that tried privatizing water? It made it illegal to even collect rainwater and drink it. If claiming the rain as yours to sell is not stealing, I don't know what is.

Richy_T

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that many of the laws the government passes to allow them to take others' property are unconstitutional and thus illegal and invalid in themselves. This makes actions done under the letter of these laws illegal. Then there are the times when the government doesn't even abide by the law and just does what it wants anyway just because it's more convenient. This is often the case on a more local, individual scale but occurs at all levels.

In the words of a great man, "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."

justusranvier

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As FirstAscent has helpfully demonstrated, "government" is just abusive parenting on a societal scale. The only reason we take their claims of legitimacy seriously at all is because so many people were conditioned into automatic obedience to power via authoritarian child rearing.

The state is nothing more than the most successful criminal cartel to operate in a given geographic area. Once a protection racket gets strong enough it can intimidate people into calling them a government instead of a mafia, but there is no real difference between them - it's just a linguistic trick.

Lethn

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Quote from: mwag on March 15, 2013, 10:57:44 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on March 15, 2013, 02:51:36 AM

If you were born in my household, play by my rules or leave. Clear enough?

I was born free. You will have to force me to "play by your rules", I'm not going anywhere. I'm not some pushover that you can just take advantage of, I am more than capable of defending myself. Clear enough?

I like you Cheesy

( totally meant as a non-homosexual compliment Tongue

)

mwag

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Quote from: FirstAscent on March 15, 2013, 02:51:36 AM

If you were born in my household, play by my rules or leave. Clear enough?

I was born free. You will have to force me to "play by your rules", I'm not going anywhere. I'm not some pushover that you can just take advantage of, I am more than capable of defending myself. Clear enough?

nwbitcoin

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You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

The government legally steal all the time.

When you are the people who decide what is legal, and what isn't, it becomes a game of semantics!

Easiest example to get point across is that everything Hitler ever did was totally legal by German law. That includes all everything from Kristallnacht through to Auschwitz! Sorry, if I initiated Godwin's law early! Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

The point is that the law is whatever those in charge say is the law - so it gets funny to watch government's break other laws that they have no control over, and how they deal with it.

Stealing is something they tend to justify by calling it something like care or safety or whatever.

Recently there has been a big problem in the UK with the government stealing children!

Read the story, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9683399/Michael-Gove-take-children-into-care-more-quickly.html

Now change the words care for steal and see how it sounds! Wink

Lethn

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Even if you don't include things like taxes governments find all sorts of ways to steal from you, inflation is the one everyone can all relate to but one thing that particularly pisses off UK people at the moment is the congestion charge ( you actually have to pay money to get into London depending on what type of car you have etc. ) and speeding fines. Now you could argue this is about safety and reducing congestion but the thing that's really devious about these fines and charges is that they charge just enough to make it painful but not enough to actually make any effect on the way people drive.

The way to think about the government indirectly stealing from you is a bit like getting into debt, you'll think you can pay off the first round but then it gets worse and worse the further into debt you get until it becomes uncontrollable.

MonadTran

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Quote from: FirstAscent on March 15, 2013, 02:51:36 AM

Quote from: FirstAscent on March 14, 2013, 09:54:54 PM

If I create a currency, and use it regularly in my household between residents in my household, and I agree to let you stay in my household, and let you use my currency, and i let you own stuff in my household at my discretion, and I charge you a fee based on transactions you engage in using my currency in my household, is that theft?

That's basically what governments do.

What if bitcoin charged you a fee for engaging in transactions using bitcoins? Is that theft?

What was stated when you moved in was that the rules can change. Take it or leave it. If you were born in my household, play by my rules or leave. Clear enough?

Even if I'm in your household, I still have to play by the rules set up by government. Therefore, according to your logic, you have no household. Everything belongs to the government.

And if you are unlucky enough to be a US citizen, you belong to your government too, 'cause you have to pay your taxes anywhere you go.

Once more. You have no property. You yourself are a property. Are you OK with this? Are you here to defend this system?

FirstAscent

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Quote from: Mike Christ on March 14, 2013, 10:10:16 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on March 14, 2013, 09:54:54 PM

If I create a currency, and use it regularly in my household between residents in my household, and I agree to let you stay in my household, and let you use my currency, and i let you own stuff in my household at my discretion, and I charge you a fee based on transactions you engage in using my currency in my household, is that theft?

That's basically what governments do.

What if bitcoin charged you a fee for engaging in transactions using bitcoins? Is that theft?

Depends; was the household fee clearly stated when I first moved in, or was it created after? And may I opt out if I decide I no longer want to use said currency or the benefits it entails?

What was stated when you moved in was that the rules can change. Take it or leave it. If you were born in my household, play by my rules or leave. Clear enough?

Fuzzy

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Quote from: ?? on ??

"legal stealing" is an oxymoron.

Regardless, the government can take your property from you legally, and with few restrictions. Furthermore, if they want to take your property and they don't have the authority, then they just pass a law that gives them the authority, and then they take it.

This is why people should withhold as much information from the government as possible. It will use that information against you.

And if you encrypt your virtual property, they can throw you in prison for withholding the passwords.

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

"Legally," yes, they do it all the time.

"Justly," on the other hand is a whole different kettle of fish.

Topic: Is there ever a case where the government could legally steal? - page 3. (Read 3003 times)