It's about time to turn off PoW mining - page 25.

BreadJoint

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on September 17, 2014, 02:01:52 PM

Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 17, 2014, 01:47:25 PM

However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

Wait, what crypto is "truly deflationary"?

any crypto may be deflationary if its value grows even if it is being mined/minted

gold is considered to be defationary even tho new gold is mined every day

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on September 17, 2014, 02:10:26 PM

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 02:04:21 PM

I think this is enough about network security, it has become irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I believe it's far easier to hack discus fish and ghash.io's web server, than to get 51 delegates to click on your malicious link and somehow you obtain their private node device access thru this link. You may believe differently, that's fine. Again, pools being hacked has happened many times in reality. 51 Bitshare delegates being hacked simultaneously has not happened. I will leave the discussion at this fact.

They don't need to be hacked simultaneously. Once one of them is compromised it is easy to compromise the other half of delegates. Very few people change their passwords often or use unique passwords for everything. Most peoples security is laughable. Even many computer geeks have flawed security behaviors as good security is tedious and time consuming.

It is likely that some of them are already partially or completely compromised as we speak. Yes, lets move on because I also agree with you that Bitcoin is vulnerable as well.

I don't see how hacking one delegate can lead to all other delegate being hacked, since I am actually one of Bitshares 101 delegates, and I have no information regarding other delegates, they are all anonymous to me.

CoinHoarder

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on September 17, 2014, 02:01:52 PM

Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 17, 2014, 01:47:25 PM

However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

Wait, what crypto is "truly deflationary"?

I know this looks bad to keep brining up Bitshares, but it is the truth. Bitshares is one of the only (if not the only...) cryptos that is truly deflationary. Transaction and market fees are destroyed and no more BTSX will ever be printed apart from what was printed in the genesis block.

I noticed kokojie was getting ganged up on ITT, and since I share similar thoughts about PoW I thought I would help him out. So it is known, we are both Bitshares fanboys.. because it solves some of the glaring problems with the mainstream cryptos and the issues with PoW.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 02:04:21 PM

I think this is enough about network security, it has become irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I believe it's far easier to hack discus fish and ghash.io's web server, than to get 51 delegates to click on your malicious link and somehow you obtain their private node device access thru this link. You may believe differently, that's fine. Again, pools being hacked has happened many times in reality. 51 Bitshare delegates being hacked simultaneously has not happened. I will leave the discussion at this fact.

They don't need to be hacked simultaneously. Once one of them is compromised it is easy to compromise the other half of delegates. Very few people change their passwords often or use unique passwords for everything. Most peoples security is laughable. Even many computer geeks have flawed security behaviors as good security is tedious and time consuming.

It is likely that some of them are already partially or completely compromised as we speak. Yes, lets move on because I also agree with you that Bitcoin is vulnerable as well.

CoinHoarder

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Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:56:40 PM

Quote from: raganius on September 17, 2014, 01:54:15 PM

Just have a look at the OP's post. The moment it hypes that altcoin he does hype he looses all credibility.

First of all: One cannot consider investment in equipment as "money bleed". Go mine gold or uraniun without proper equipment investment...

And, indeed, the Bitcoin network if perfectly fine with PoW. If, and only IF, there's any imbalance going on the network itself is able to regain its equilibrium, naturally.

Learn:

Quote

the economic equilibrium for the mining rate is reached when global electricity costs for mining approximate the value of mining reward plus transaction fees

Except even when coin supply is depleted, Bitcoin will still need to maintain the PoW expense, otherwise the network will become laughablely easy to attack. So it's not a valid comparison. This is more like if you hold gold, a 10% tax is charged every year, perpetually.

The comparison is even more flawed than that, as cryptos can be secured with much cheaper and less hardware than PoW by using a PoS variant. Whereas when mining gold, it is necessary to purchase expensive equipment to mine it in any sizable amount. PoS can secure alternative blockchains much cheaper than Bitcoin can at a similar security efficiency. It is like producing the same amount of gold as all the biggest Gold mines put together by using gold panning techniques (which is impossible.)

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on September 17, 2014, 01:56:51 PM

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:49:44 PM

These again, requires the person to actually click something, how do you get them to click on something is your first obstacles.

Even security experts are tricked into clicking on a link by accident from time to time. You are very mistaken into not realizing how vulnerable we all are when connected to the WAN. This is why I and other professionals use "sneakerware" security.

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:49:44 PM

Also the delegate's web browsing device is probably not even the same as their node device, which means all your phishing efforts might be useless.

Once one computer is infected than everything is vulnerable. A worm can travel and infect any device connected on your LAN and any thumb drive and external that is briefly connected to your infected machine. Even if you use an encrypted password manager a hacker can grab screenshots, viewing your copy paste history , or a key logger and will find all your passwords. You are done.

I think this is enough about network security, it has become irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I believe it's far easier to hack discus fish and ghash.io's web server, than to get 51 delegates to click on your malicious link and somehow you obtain their private node device access thru this link. You may believe differently, that's fine. Again, pools being hacked has happened many times in reality. 51 Bitshare delegates being hacked simultaneously has not happened. I will leave the discussion at this fact.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 17, 2014, 01:47:25 PM

However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

Wait, what crypto is "truly deflationary"?

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:49:44 PM

These again, requires the person to actually click something, how do you get them to click on something is your first obstacles.

Even security experts are tricked into clicking on a link by accident from time to time. You are very mistaken into not realizing how vulnerable we all are when connected to the WAN. This is why I and other professionals use "sneakerware" or air gaped security.

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:49:44 PM

Also the delegate's web browsing device is probably not even the same as their node device, which means all your phishing efforts might be useless.

Once one computer is infected than everything is vulnerable. A worm can travel and infect any device connected on your LAN and any thumb drive and external that is briefly connected to your infected machine. Even if you use an encrypted password manager a hacker can grab screenshots, viewing your copy paste history , or a key logger and will find all your passwords. You are done.

kokojie

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Quote from: raganius on September 17, 2014, 01:54:15 PM

Just have a look at the OP's post. The moment it hypes that altcoin he does hype he looses all credibility.

First of all: One cannot consider investment in equipment as "money bleed". Go mine gold or uraniun without proper equipment investment...

And, indeed, the Bitcoin network if perfectly fine with PoW. If, and only IF, there's any imbalance going on the network itself is able to regain its equilibrium, naturally.

Learn:

Quote

the economic equilibrium for the mining rate is reached when global electricity costs for mining approximate the value of mining reward plus transaction fees

Except even when coin supply is depleted, Bitcoin will still need to maintain the PoW expense, otherwise the network will become laughablely easy to attack. So it's not a valid comparison. This is more like if you hold gold, a 10% tax is charged every year, perpetually.

raganius

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Just have a look at the OP's post. The moment it hypes that altcoin he does hype he looses all credibility.

First of all: One cannot consider investment in equipment as "money bleed". Go mine gold or uraniun without proper equipment investment...

And, indeed, the Bitcoin network if perfectly fine with PoW. If, and only IF, there's any imbalance going on, the network itself is able to regain its equilibrium, naturally.

Learn:

Quote

the economic equilibrium for the mining rate is reached when global electricity costs for mining approximate the value of mining reward plus transaction fees

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on September 17, 2014, 01:44:42 PM

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:36:36 PM

having OS security patches doesn't mean you can be hacked while firewalled. Mostly these vulnerabilities happen under a very specific scenario, mostly requiring you to visit a malicious website or use a specific application/setting.

Yes, and many hackers have a tool bag of exploits they can execute at their disposal when one fails.

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:36:36 PM

How do you hack 51 delegate's private computer without knowing their IP address, even assuming their computer all have vulnerabilities?

Their are many ways to hack the delegates without knowing any IP addresses: phishing attacks , creating malicious sites or landing pages that exploit 0 day vulnerabilities in java/javascript/flash/pdf/ect..., finding a flaw within bitshares itself, and how about starting by targeting these people:

http://bitshares.org/community/team/

All one has to do is compromise one of them and the rest are easily compromised afterwards.

These again, requires the person to actually click something, how do you get them to click on something is your first obstacles. Hacking discus fish or ghash.io doesn't require the site admin to click anything, a newly discovered PHP/Apache/Mysql vulnerability may cause both of them to be hacked at the same time, since they already broadcast their IP and offers a route of entry.

Also the delegate's web browsing device is probably not even the same as their node device, which means all your phishing efforts might be useless.

I don't see how compromising one of bitshares developer's computer does anything. Also, again you'd need to find their IP address first or get them to click on something malicious you own (which I don't think you will be very successful at in a techie community).

CoinHoarder

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Quote from: cbeast on September 17, 2014, 01:26:08 PM

All the altcoins combined are statistically insignificant. The shadow banking system uses dollars by default as it is the reserve currency. My response was glib because Bitcoin inflation is fixed and known. It might as well be zero because the rate is baked in for trading purposes.

Very well. Sure, Bitcoin compared to the inflation of the dollar (including shadow banking) may look like a saint. However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:36:36 PM

having OS security patches doesn't mean you can be hacked while firewalled. Mostly these vulnerabilities happen under a very specific scenario, mostly requiring you to visit a malicious website or use a specific application/setting.

Yes, and many hackers have a tool bag of exploits they can execute at their disposal when one fails.

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:36:36 PM

How do you hack 51 delegate's private computer without knowing their IP address, even assuming their computer all have vulnerabilities?

Their are many ways to hack the delegates without knowing any IP addresses: phishing attacks , creating malicious sites or landing pages that exploit 0 day vulnerabilities in java/javascript/flash/pdf/ect..., finding a flaw within bitshares itself, and how about starting by targeting these people:

http://bitshares.org/community/team/

All one has to do is compromise one of them and the rest are easily compromised afterwards.

CoinHoarder

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Quote from: obocaman on September 17, 2014, 01:33:26 PM

Wrong, Bitcoin is perfectly fine as it is.

This is the kind of group think that is so common in Bitcoinland that has attracted me to Alt cryptos, and made me a Bitcoin bear despite years of being a Bitcoin bull.

No, it isn't "perfectly fine as is."

This is my opinion on that: http://www.cryptoreview.net/blog/

Anywhere I reference Litecoin, substitute it for Bitcoin as my opinion is the same with both.

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on September 17, 2014, 01:33:11 PM

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:25:56 PM

See the difference now? you can't even obtain my private PC's IP address, without some serious big effort, probably NSA level surveillance is needed. Then you need to somehow attack my firewalled PC that does not offer any service to the outside, which is actually not as easy as you think, it's probably nearly impossible to do so.

What are you talking about?

Why does a hacker even need to know your IP before you are compromised? Your computer is full of security vulnerabilities. Why do you think it is constantly being patched? All someone needs to target you is your email address or to know what sites you prefer visiting.

How do you hack 51 delegate's private computer without knowing their IP address, even assuming their computer all have vulnerabilities?

having OS security patches doesn't mean you can be hacked while firewalled. Mostly these vulnerabilities happen under a very specific scenario, mostly requiring you to visit a malicious website or use a specific application/setting. Otherwise you could just pick a random IP address and hack into it? of course not, the reality is your private firewalled computer is very much safe even when you are connected to WAN, as long as you don't install virus/trojan yourself.

obocaman

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Wrong, Bitcoin is perfectly fine as it is.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 01:25:56 PM

See the difference now? you can't even obtain my private PC's IP address, without some serious big effort, probably NSA level surveillance is needed. Then you need to somehow attack my firewalled PC that does not offer any service to the outside, which is actually not as easy as you think, it's probably nearly impossible to do so.

What are you talking about?

Why does a hacker even need to know your IP before you are compromised? Your computer is full of security vulnerabilities. Why do you think it is constantly being patched? All someone needs to target you is your email address or to know what sites you prefer visiting.

All a hacker has to do is trick you by a phishing attack from a spoofed email into visiting a page with a 0 day java/javascript/flash/pdf/ect... vulnerability.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 17, 2014, 01:20:51 PM

Quote from: cbeast on September 17, 2014, 12:45:56 PM

Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 17, 2014, 12:44:23 PM

Quote from: seriouscoin on September 17, 2014, 03:57:33 AM

Quote from: gtraah on September 17, 2014, 03:53:55 AM

Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 16, 2014, 09:53:36 PM

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.

While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.

The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%.

Umm hello... Fiat is inflating by tens of trillions a year if you include shadow banking.

He referenced specifically the US dollar, and that is what my answer was tailored towards.

Your statement is an inaccurate comparison of inflation, because the market cap of Bitcoin is not nearly the size of the market cap of all FIATs combined plus shadow banking. To make an accurate comparison you would need to set Bitcoin's market cap to that of the current market cap of FIAT, or compare the two based on a percentage. Even then you are combining all FIAT currencies and shadow banking, if you are doing that to make the comparison then you should also combine the inflation rate of all PoW cryptos to arrive at an accurate conclusion.

All the altcoins combined are statistically insignificant. The shadow banking system uses dollars by default as it is the reserve currency. My response was glib because Bitcoin inflation is fixed and known. It might as well be zero because the rate is baked in for trading purposes.

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on September 17, 2014, 12:42:10 PM

Quote from: kokojie on September 17, 2014, 12:35:56 PM

Any service that offers web server access, is automatically less secure than my private firewalled computer. (assuming I don't install trojan/viruses myself).

This proves you don't understand network security.

Reality:
When comparing your computer connected to the WAN to a server connected to the WAN they are both as secure as they are designed to be. "automatically" doesn't even enter into the discussion.

Most servers are locked down far more than either OSX or Windows OS's even with firewalls. They have to be as they are more valuable targets.

Most Bitcoin hot wallet "hacker attacks" are likely inside jobs where outside hackers are blamed for internal theft.

lol, let's compare again:

Web server:
1. IP address automatically revealed to the world
2. actively offers web access to the world, which is the route of entry for majority of internet based hack attacks.

Private PC:
1. IP address can not be easily obtained
2. firewalled, no port will offer access from the outside

See the difference now? you can't even obtain my private PC's IP address, without some serious big effort, probably NSA level surveillance is needed. Sure my computer is connected to the WAN, but how do you know this computer is mine? there's billions of devices connected to the WAN. Even if you somehow got my IP address, then you need to somehow attack my firewalled PC that does not offer any service to the outside, which is actually not as easy as you think, it's probably nearly impossible to do so.

On the other hand, a web server actively broadcasts its IP address, and also actively offers a route of entry into the server by port 80, and possibly FTP too. Therefore, it's automatically less secure than my private PC, got it now?

CoinHoarder

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Quote from: cbeast on September 17, 2014, 12:45:56 PM

Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 17, 2014, 12:44:23 PM

Quote from: seriouscoin on September 17, 2014, 03:57:33 AM

Quote from: gtraah on September 17, 2014, 03:53:55 AM

Quote from: CoinHoarder on September 16, 2014, 09:53:36 PM

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.

While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.

The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%.

Umm hello... Fiat is inflating by tens of trillions a year if you include shadow banking.

He referenced specifically the US dollar, and that is what my answer was tailored towards.

Your statement is an inaccurate comparison of inflation, because the market cap of Bitcoin is not nearly the size of the market cap of all FIATs combined plus shadow banking. To make an accurate comparison you would need to set Bitcoin's market cap to that of the current market cap of FIAT, or compare the two based on a percentage. Even then you are combining all FIAT currencies and shadow banking, if you are doing that to make the comparison then you should also combine the inflation rate of all PoW cryptos to arrive at an accurate conclusion.

Topic: It's about time to turn off PoW mining - page 25. (Read 39732 times)