lol... you are drinking the koolaid if you believe this. You are using the incorrect CPI algo here. Try adding in the inflation from what some would call important resources like food and fuel to get a more accurate level of 5-8% in the US. An inflation level held "low" by the US taxing the rest of the world because it remains the reserve currency in most trade. Once the reserve currency market share starts to drop further I will guarantee you will see those inflation stats of 5-8% grow.
The goods in US are subsidised by the rest of the world because US dollar is a reserve currency.
Topic: It's about time to turn off PoW mining - page 26. (Read 39732 times)
The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded...
Well you are correct that BTC is currently inflating and will continue to do so in monetary units until 2140. But technically in the currency marketplace despite Bitcoin inflating in supply it is acting as a deflationary currency because demand outstrips supply. So over the last 5 years USD fiat has lost 99.9999% in value against bitcoin.
the USD is currently inflating by 2%. 
lol... you are drinking the koolaid if you believe this. You are using the incorrect CPI algo here. Try adding in the inflation from what some would call important resources like food and fuel to get a more accurate level of 5-8% in the US. Inflation level in the US is held "low" by the US taxing the rest of the world because it remains the reserve currency in most trade. Once the reserve currency market share starts to drop further I will guarantee you will see those inflation stats of 5-8% grow.
BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.
Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.
While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.
The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%.
BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.
Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.
While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.
The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%.
Any service that offers web server access, is automatically less secure than my private firewalled computer. (assuming I don't install trojan/viruses myself).
This proves you don't understand network security.
Reality:
When comparing your computer connected to the WAN to a server connected to the WAN they are both as secure as they are designed to be. "automatically" doesn't even enter into the discussion.
Most servers are locked down far more than either OSX or Windows OS's even with firewalls. They have to be as they are more valuable targets.
Most Bitcoin hot wallet "hacker attacks" are likely inside jobs where outside hackers are blamed for internal theft.
The irrefutable argument about PoS:
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.
oh sure, since it's too difficult to copy PoW, they will only copy PoS instead. Makes sense.
Hack attack on DPoS:
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.
Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.
Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done
discus fish and ghash.io probably have much better security than those 51 delegates but that is besides the point. The point is I agree that bitcoin is vulnerable, and that's why I repeatedly have claimed your suggestions would be 1 step forward and 2 steps back in the long term. you are introducing new attack vulnerabilities when we should focus on fixing bitcoins known existing vulnerabilities.
What we need is a much larger and diverse pool of nodes and a much more diverse pool of miners that aren't using cloud mining or non-p2p pools.
Any service that offers web server access, is automatically less secure than my private firewalled computer. (assuming I don't install trojan/viruses myself).
It would be a big challenge for you to even find my real IP. (hint my forum ip is not my real ip, so hacking this forum does nothing)
The irrefutable argument about PoS:
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.
oh sure, since it's too difficult to copy PoW, they will only copy PoS instead. Makes sense.
Hack attack on DPoS:
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.
Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.
Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done
discus fish and ghash.io probably have much better security than those 51 delegates but that is besides the point. The point is I agree that bitcoin is vulnerable, and that's why I repeatedly have claimed your suggestions would be 1 step forward and 2 steps back in the long term. you are introducing new attack vulnerabilities when we should focus on fixing bitcoins known existing vulnerabilities.
What we need is a much larger and diverse pool of nodes and a much more diverse pool of miners that aren't using cloud mining or non-p2p pools.
The irrefutable argument about PoS:
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.
Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.
You are referring to pools being attacked. Miners can easily switch their machines to a different pool in the event the pool was to be hacked, or they could solo mine. If someone were to lease enough hashpower to launch a 51% attack then your attack would no longer be effective once your lease is up. In order for a 51% attack to be effective an attacker needs to control 51% of the network for extended periods of time otherwise the "attack blocks" can simply be ignored
Except ghash.io owns most of the hardware mining on the pool thru cloud mining, and discus fish is soon to offer cloud mining too.
Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.
You are referring to pools being attacked. Miners can easily switch their machines to a different pool in the event the pool was to be hacked, or they could solo mine. If someone were to lease enough hashpower to launch a 51% attack then your attack would no longer be effective once your lease is up. In order for a 51% attack to be effective an attacker needs to control 51% of the network for extended periods of time otherwise the "attack blocks" can simply be ignored
Delegates are still voted in by stake, stakeholders could simply vote them out instantly if they are compromised (though good luck compromising 51 de-centralized delegates), Bitshares makes this a very fast and simple process. No attacker would be dumb enough to target the Delegates. They would still target the stakes.
Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)
Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)
You are making the flawed assumption that delegates or stakeholders will be aware they are compromised. If they aren't aware than an attack can happen at any moment or could have already happened.
Do you understand that there are ways to cheat in a DPoS framework without immediately arising suspicion that the protocol is compromised?
Again you are making up these nearly impossible scenarios which PoS can be attacked, which I already told you, I agree PoS CAN be attacked ok? but it's much more difficult than PoW!!!
Let's compare:
Hack attack on DPoS:
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.
Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done
Quote
Do you understand that there are ways to cheat in a DPoS framework without immediately arising suspicion that the protocol is compromised?
Noooooooooooooo!Delegates are still voted in by stake, stakeholders could simply vote them out instantly if they are compromised (though good luck compromising 51 de-centralized delegates), Bitshares makes this a very fast and simple process. No attacker would be dumb enough to target the Delegates. They would still target the stakes.
Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)
Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)
You are making the flawed assumption that delegates or stakeholders will be aware they are compromised. If they aren't aware than an attack can happen at any moment or could have already happened.
Do you understand that there are ways to cheat in a DPoS framework without immediately arising suspicion that the protocol is compromised?
You keep discounting the importance of hypothetical attack vectors when they are of utmost of importance in information security. All investors of "Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities " were quite happy clients with no history of an attack until Bam a "hypothetical" ponzi security vulnerability hit them.
If anything, I would think being bigger makes it much more difficult to attack.
No, with Bitshares because of centralization hacker only need to target delegates regardless of the size of DPoS market cap.
Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.
Sure, but with Bitcoin you have to buy or manufacture the equipment and spend the time and money setting up the large mining farms , and spend electricity to fake 1-3 transactions. With PoS or DPoS all you have to do is hijack or hack the centralized keyholders without actually spending any money or resources. Who knows how many Bitshares keyholders or Nxt large shareholders are already compromised at this moment.
Delegates are still voted in by stake, stakeholders could simply vote them out instantly if they are compromised (though good luck compromising 51 de-centralized delegates), Bitshares makes this a very fast and simple process. No attacker would be dumb enough to target the Delegates. They would still target the stakes.
Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)
Like I said, you can make up these scenarios about PoS all day long, just like I could make up these for PoW too. The difference is, your scenario doesn't actually happen in reality, and my PoW scenarios does happen.
If anything, I would think being bigger makes it much more difficult to attack.
No, the centralized nature of bitshares allows a hacker to only need to target delegates regardless of the size of DPoS market cap.
Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.
Sure, but with Bitcoin you have to buy or manufacture the equipment and spend the time and money setting up the large mining farms , and spend electricity to fake 1-3 transactions. With PoS or DPoS all you have to do is hijack or hack the centralized keyholders without actually spending any money or resources. Who knows how many Bitshares keyholders or Nxt large shareholders are already compromised at this moment.
Gaven's response was basically "they aren't big enough yet". I can't really see the logic behind "being bigger makes it easier to attack". Tiny PoW altcoins gets 51% attacked all the time, even sizable PoW like Dogecoin gets 51% attacked several times, while the biggest ones Bitcoin and Litecoin never got attacked.
If anything, I would think being bigger makes it much more difficult to attack.
If anything, I would think being bigger makes it much more difficult to attack.
PoW alts are very vulnerable because any mining pool or large miner can easily create a 51% attack for a brief moment and than point their resources miners back to securing litecoin or bitcoin .
PoS can be attacked by either covertly leasing, buying or hijacking the 50% of the original stakeholders assets. This takes time and an organized effort, thus the bigger these currencies get the more incentive their is to fund such an effort.
Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.
PoS CAN be attacked, of course I agree, but it's still much more difficult to attack than PoW, therefore it's a better alternative to PoW.
Buying 51% stakes in a PoS will cost you astronomical amount of resources, while buying hardware to 51% a PoW is easy and won't push up price.
I have already explained all of these points earlier in this tread.
Again, you have to question why these attack theories doesn't happen to PoS altcoins in reality, but does happen to PoW altcoins. "Not big enough yet" is not the answer, I assure you.
Gaven's response was basically "they aren't big enough yet". I can't really see the logic behind "being bigger makes it easier to attack". Tiny PoW altcoins gets 51% attacked all the time, even sizable PoW like Dogecoin gets 51% attacked several times, while the biggest ones Bitcoin and Litecoin never got attacked.
PoW alts are very vulnerable because any mining pool or large miner can easily create a 51% attack for a brief moment and than point their miners back to securing litecoin or bitcoin .
PoS can be attacked by either covertly leasing, buying or hijacking the 50% of the original stakeholders assets. This takes time and an organized effort, thus the bigger these currencies get the more incentive their is to fund such an effort.
This is a great theory, but still doesn't explain why it haven't happened in reality. You can make up scenarios and theories all day of "what may happen", but when it doesn't actually happen in reality, you have to question your theory, not question reality.
Gavin already addressed your question about why it hasn't already happened in reality. The fact that an attack has yet to occur historically is no way to design a secure protocol either. The fact that you are even using this as an argument shows you aren't serious about security or PoS flaws.
Yes, in Network and Information security one must analyze and prepare for all hypothetical attack vectors. This is the reason most Bitcoin proponents who understand Information Security still suggest Bitcoin is "fragile", 7k average active nodes is too few, and how they would prefer other implementations like libbitcoin to exist alongside Bitcoincore that interact with the blockchain.
Gaven's response was basically "they aren't big enough yet". I can't really see the logic behind "being bigger makes it easier to attack". Tiny PoW altcoins gets 51% attacked all the time, even sizable PoW like Dogecoin gets 51% attacked several times, while the biggest ones Bitcoin and Litecoin never got attacked.
If anything, I would think being bigger makes it much more difficult to attack.
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