Is there a rebuttal from the PoS crowd to this:
https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
... other than "sure, the original PoS ideas were flawed, but the latest MegaUberPoS system gets it right and nobody has figured out exactly how to break it!"
Topic: It's about time to turn off PoW mining - page 28. (Read 39732 times)
Not so much as to pump bitshares, but to create a sense of urgency for Bitcoin to fade out PoW. Because I legitimately think Bitshares will overtake Bitcoin in 3-4 years, if the status quo is maintained, due to the advantage of not having transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to hardware vendor/electric companies every year.
I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares.
I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares.
If you believe Bitshares are superior , than sell your BTC and buy more bitshares. We will all join you in time if you are right, and you will be rewarded for your earlier insights.
The fact that you are sill heavily invested in BTC and are making comments like "PoW is dead" is troubling to say the least.
My reasoning:
* Each transaction in Bitcoin costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction to process. (currently this is subsidized by inflow of capital into the eco-system, so users haven't felt the full effect).
* Hundreds of millions of dollars are paid to mining hardware vendor and electricity company. This will continue year after year, and only will grow more and more as Bitcoin grows bigger. The Bitcoin community is being bled dry. The price action this year shows that even with massive amount of big name adoption and good news, the inflow of capital is having trouble to keep up with the insane surge of mining cost.
* There are better ways to secure the network, for example Bitshares's DPoS system. Money is re-invested into the eco-system and community, instead of paid to hardware vendor and electric company.
* If Bitcoin doesn't drop PoW and embrace the much more efficient DPoS system. I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin. Simply because Bitcoin eco-system is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars each year, and the DPoS re-invests the money and grows the eco-system/community each year.
Btw, you can hold BTC in Bitshares
* Each transaction in Bitcoin costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction to process. (currently this is subsidized by inflow of capital into the eco-system, so users haven't felt the full effect).
* Hundreds of millions of dollars are paid to mining hardware vendor and electricity company. This will continue year after year, and only will grow more and more as Bitcoin grows bigger. The Bitcoin community is being bled dry. The price action this year shows that even with massive amount of big name adoption and good news, the inflow of capital is having trouble to keep up with the insane surge of mining cost.
* There are better ways to secure the network, for example Bitshares's DPoS system. Money is re-invested into the eco-system and community, instead of paid to hardware vendor and electric company.
* If Bitcoin doesn't drop PoW and embrace the much more efficient DPoS system. I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin. Simply because Bitcoin eco-system is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars each year, and the DPoS re-invests the money and grows the eco-system/community each year.
Btw, you can hold BTC in Bitshares
It's so sad to see a Legendary member with this kind of tactics to try and pump bitshares
If you want to criticize bitcoin , do it without praising a system that will turn to dust long before POW will show any weakness.
Not so much as to pump bitshares, but to create a sense of urgency for Bitcoin to fade out PoW. Because I legitimately think Bitshares will overtake Bitcoin in 3-4 years, if the status quo is maintained, due to the advantage of not having transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to hardware vendor/electric companies every year.
I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares.
How would I criticize Bitcoin PoW without showing a potentially superior alternative implementation?
I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin.
You are not even accepting donation in Bitshares
/thread
My donation info for Bitshares is right in front of your eyes
(hint: it's my id) 
My reasoning:
* Each transaction in Bitcoin costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction to process. (currently this is subsidized by inflow of capital into the eco-system, so users haven't felt the full effect).
* Hundreds of millions of dollars are paid to mining hardware vendor and electricity company. This will continue year after year, and only will grow more and more as Bitcoin grows bigger. The Bitcoin community is being bled dry. The price action this year shows that even with massive amount of big name adoption and good news, the inflow of capital is having trouble to keep up with the insane surge of mining cost.
* There are better ways to secure the network, for example Bitshares's DPoS system. Money is re-invested into the eco-system and community, instead of paid to hardware vendor and electric company.
* If Bitcoin doesn't drop PoW and embrace the much more efficient DPoS system. I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin. Simply because Bitcoin eco-system is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars each year, and the DPoS re-invests the money and grows the eco-system/community each year.
Btw, you can hold BTC in Bitshares
* Each transaction in Bitcoin costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction to process. (currently this is subsidized by inflow of capital into the eco-system, so users haven't felt the full effect).
* Hundreds of millions of dollars are paid to mining hardware vendor and electricity company. This will continue year after year, and only will grow more and more as Bitcoin grows bigger. The Bitcoin community is being bled dry. The price action this year shows that even with massive amount of big name adoption and good news, the inflow of capital is having trouble to keep up with the insane surge of mining cost.
* There are better ways to secure the network, for example Bitshares's DPoS system. Money is re-invested into the eco-system and community, instead of paid to hardware vendor and electric company.
* If Bitcoin doesn't drop PoW and embrace the much more efficient DPoS system. I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin. Simply because Bitcoin eco-system is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars each year, and the DPoS re-invests the money and grows the eco-system/community each year.
Btw, you can hold BTC in Bitshares
It's so sad to see a Legendary member with this kind of tactics to try and pump bitshares
If you want to criticize bitcoin , do it without praising a system that will turn to dust long before POW will show any weakness.
PUMP BITSHARESX
Sounds like infomercial from an uninformed troll
Haha - about 90% of all posts on this forum appear to be exactly that!
Sounds like infomercial from an uninformed troll
DPoS suffers from a crucial problem which invalidates the whole system. There is no proof of stake, therefore there is no way to conclusively ascertain which chain is the longest and thus which spending is not a double spend. Meaning that DPoS does not prevent double spending.
walk me through that please!
DPoS suffers from a crucial problem which invalidates the whole system. There is no proof of stake, therefore there is no way to conclusively ascertain which chain is the longest and thus which spending is not a double spend. Meaning that DPoS does not prevent double spending.
Just use a different coin if you think some other system is better.
Proof of work is one of the main (if not the main) strengths of Bitcoin.
Proof of work is one of the main (if not the main) strengths of Bitcoin.
Exactly. There are many coins you can choose.
BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.
Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.
While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.
BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.
When you look at the costs for mining PoS vs mining PoW coins as a percentage of the value of the total coins then PoW is much more efficient. PoS actively discourages people from spending their coins therefore the economy will never mature and thus the value of the coins will always be small. This will result in the PoS coin always having a smaller potential market cap then any PoW coin to the point that the cost per dollar of market cap is higher for a PoS coin
This is not true as there are versions do PoS that it doesn't matter how long you hold the coins. Delegated proof of stake for instance destroys fees and that is how the companies dividends are paid, thus it doesn't matter how long you've held the coins or if you buy something with them. BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
This is one thigh that annoys me about the PoW vs PoS debate. People saying PoW is so much more secure than PoS, because it is not entirely true as both have their strengths and weaknesses. People have been claiming PoS is insecure for years, yet no one has been able to successfully attack it. A lot of people don't realize that there are many different versions of PoS also, some more secure or better than others. There have been something like 10 PoS algos released (or in development) this year alone. Older versions were less secure than newer versions, but that is just natural as people improve and expand upon the original PoS innovation.
You are right that people investing in mining hardware are unlikely to attack PoW. I think that is an unlikely attack vector. A more likely scenario would be a government or large global bank pay for someone to root the discus fish and/or bitfury mining pools, or build a large farm themselves. Due to economies of scale that ASICs provide, it is economically feasible that over 100 countries in the world could attack Bitcoin with no support from any other country. Furthermore, it is mathematically likely to be able to attack the Bitcoin network with as little as 30% of the hashing power with a reasonable success rate. I think most people read 51% attack and assume because of the name that someone would need 51% of the network, but mathematics and probability will show that is untrue. A prolonged double spend attack would crush the confidence in Bitcoin, brining it to its knees.
Pffft, of course. Sorry to waste your time with that!
My bad.
No problem! My number was a complete guess anyway, based on the fact that OP said it would cost "hundreds of millions" to gain enough hashpower for 51% attack. You did the math, and it seems like $300M is almost spot-on.My bad.
The point isnt just about the cost of the attack but how effective it is.
The attack can only disrupt the blockchain for a short moment then become nullified when the community responds.
Not to mention 51% is .... in theory, but in reality you have to beat the network multiple times consequentially.
When you look at the costs for mining PoS vs mining PoW coins as a percentage of the value of the total coins then PoW is much more efficient. PoS actively discourages people from spending their coins therefore the economy will never mature and thus the value of the coins will always be small. This will result in the PoS coin always having a smaller potential market cap then any PoW coin to the point that the cost per dollar of market cap is higher for a PoS coin
This is not true as there are versions do PoS that it doesn't matter how long you hold the coins. Delegated proof of stake for instance destroys fees and that is how the companies dividends are paid, thus it doesn't matter how long you've held the coins or if you buy something with them. BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
When you look at the costs for mining PoS vs mining PoW coins as a percentage of the value of the total coins then PoW is much more efficient. PoS actively discourages people from spending their coins therefore the economy will never mature and thus the value of the coins will always be small. This will result in the PoS coin always having a smaller potential market cap then any PoW coin to the point that the cost per dollar of market cap is higher for a PoS coin
This is not true as there are versions of PoS that it doesn't matter how long you hold the coins. Delegated proof of stake for instance destroys fees and that is how the companies dividends are paid, thus it doesn't matter how long you've held the coins or if you buy something with them. BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.
I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.
It's no more far-fetched than they spending astronomical amount of money to attack a PoS system (and without guaranteed success, like attacking a PoW).
Okay - am coming around to your point of view now - but one point still bothers me which is the *hacking point*.
With PoW you can't *hack the proof* you have to "do the work" (unless a fundamental flaw is found with SHA256 which would probably screw up all cryptos that exist at the moment).
It may be much easier to *attack the wallets* of stake holders (via keyloggers, etc.) in order to gain the stake without having to spend "astronomic amounts" of money.
I'd argue PoS miners are much more security minded, since they have to pretty much keep the wallet hot (online), even if briefly, in order to mine with it (though I believe in DPoS system you don't have to, since mining is delegated to the delegates, you can put your funds in cold storage). Also they are very much de-centralized, instead of concentrated in a pool, can you imagine how hard it is to obtain the identity of 10,000 PoS miner, their IP address, and then some how access their mining PC etc...
I'd be much more worried that discus fish and ghash.io getting hacked simultaneously (imho a much more likely scenario) and the attacker instantly gain 51% in Bitcoin.
Not really, you will only get constantly attacked if you are running a website with the hot wallet.
If your PC is not running any service, not install any trojan/virus, and the network is properly firewalled, the chances of getting hacked, is practically zero. If it were that easy to hack someone, no one would be using Bitcoin anymore, since majority of the Bitcoin users are not using cold wallets neither, and the average Bitcoin user is much less security minded than a PoS miner, who probably has taken the correct security measures to keep his PoS mining PC safe. Plus the hacker would only be able to obtain an encrypted wallet, that he then have to try to crack, probably a fruitless effort.
Usually a Bitcoin user gets hacked due to 1. unencrypted wallet, 2. backs up wallet + password in the sameplace (ie dropbox), and account gets hacked. 3. installed wallet stealing malware, and password got keylogged.
Non of these will happen to a correctly set up PoS miner.
Not really a dedicated computer, it can be run in a VM if you want. Just a properly secured computer. Of course PoS still needs some hardware, nothing operates out of a vacuum. The difference is efficiency.
PoS does still use some resource, but it's maybe 0.00001% of what Bitcoin PoW uses. Also the resource usage doesn't have to increase when the eco-system grows in value. It's basically a static amount of resource needed. These resources are needed to have full nodes anyway, so they are not really wasted.
In Nxt, anyone can forge (possibly through leasing). It's not something reserved to the rich and powerful. The percentage returns are the same.
In Nxt, forging is something done to help secure the network. It's not done to make money. The income from forging is currently around 0.2%/year, which is trivial.
In Nxt, forging is something done to help secure the network. It's not done to make money. The income from forging is currently around 0.2%/year, which is trivial.
Why would the ability to lease make any difference to my argument. Yes, the percentage returns are indeed the same, thus those with extremely large purses or very large leases profit the most and all others take a loss(when you subtract electricity) when forging Nxt.
See for yourself:
http://www.mynxt.info/forging_calculator.php
so unless you have 5million or more NXT (or can pay to lease that amount) than forging really doesn't cover the cost of electricity:
http://charts.nxtcrypto.org/cDistribution.aspx
This means that only the original investors can realistically profit from forging. With higher transaction velocity early investors can look to profit much more even if fees decrease.
This means the top 0.2% profit from Nxt forging and would explain why there are so few nodes despite it using so little electricity and having a trivial barrier to entry:
http://www.peerexplorer.com/
only 245 average nodes online. Bitcoin's 7k average active nodes is dangerous. 245 globally is just laughable.
Validating transactions is so cheap in PoS, it leads to a different mentality to PoW, because there aren't millions of dollars involved every day. (That's part of why "nothing at stake" doesn't apply. The increased income you'd get from forging on multiple forks isn't worth the loss of security. NaS is a criticism only someone from the PoW world would make.)
A complete Non-Sequitur. People can have other motivations besides direct profit with a NaS attack.
I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin.
You are not even accepting donation in Bitshares
/thread
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