It's impossible for EVERYONE to benefit

Spaceman_Spiff

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Quote from: Richy_T on April 30, 2013, 10:37:46 AM

Nonsense. As others have said, it is not a zero sum game.
Those that don't understand the essence of free trade, which is individuals performing an exchange which enhances the value proposition of both, need to meditate on things a little more.

This.

Richy_T

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Quote from: chiropteran on April 30, 2013, 09:16:10 AM

The OP's premise is true. It is impossible for everyone to benefit. For each bit of value created in bitcoin, value is lost in fiat money. USD being inflated by 85 billion per month ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesdorn/2012/12/27/ben-bernankes-qe4-another-step-toward-helicopter-money-and-away-from-freedom/ ) results in a direct loss in value of USD, that value can flow right into bitcoin. Of course value doesn't move that smoothly and instantly and some of it is moving into real estate and some into stocks and some into gold and silver, but some of the value can certainly fit into bitcoin.

Nonsense. As others have said, it is not a zero sum game. Now, fiat is so crappy that it is bound to lose out but that is not necessarily the case just because there is a new decentralised, fluid currency on the block. And of course, if you gamble with trading, you have a chance of losing but that is a choice that is made by the individual.

Those that don't understand the essence of free trade, which is individuals performing an exchange which enhances the value proposition of both, need to meditate on things a little more.

BubbleBoy

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It's actually possible that everyone benefits: when governments print money out of thin air they can spend it's value without anybody losing anything right then. It's called seigniorage. Of course, there no free lunch and eventually someone will foot the bill, usually the people left holding the worthless money when the currency is debased or abolished.

Bitcoin tries to move that seigniorage profit in the hands of the early adopters. In theory the losers would be those left holding bitcoins in the far off future when bitcoins are superseded by a better wealth transfer system. In practice that future is much closer than most people expect.

bitleif

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I'm always grumpy in the morning.

Bitcoin can be a net positive on society because it is new technology, it makes new things possible/easier that were previously impossible or impractical. That doesn't mean "everybody" wins. Those who are heavily invested in the old system may lose. The horse-and-buggy industry lost big when cars were invented.

Cluster2k

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It is possible for everyone to benefit when a productive economy is built based on bitcoins. It's also possible for everyone to benefit if they feel (but not actually are) wealthier. A person with 1000 bitcoins today may feel flush with cash and spend more in their local economy. Of course if everyone rushes for the exits at the same time then most people lose in the rush to find the Greater Fool.

And always remember, the house always wins. In this case it's MtGox. In the case of shares or forex it's your broker and local exchange. In the case of poker it's the casino. There are perpetual winners in all cases, just the number of losers varies.

chiropteran

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The OP's premise is true. It is impossible for everyone to benefit. For each bit of value created in bitcoin, value is lost in fiat money. USD being inflated by 85 billion per month ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesdorn/2012/12/27/ben-bernankes-qe4-another-step-toward-helicopter-money-and-away-from-freedom/ ) results in a direct loss in value of USD, that value can flow right into bitcoin. Of course value doesn't move that smoothly and instantly and some of it is moving into real estate and some into stocks and some into gold and silver, but some of the value can certainly fit into bitcoin.

anu

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Quote from: herzmeister on April 30, 2013, 04:04:41 AM

The 4000 year old bubble.

Who won

Those who lived by the Golden Rule: Those with the gold make the rules

Quote from: herzmeister on April 30, 2013, 04:04:41 AM

who lost?

The bagholders who missed the Bitcoin train at a time where you could still get some coins for gold. Grin

kokojie

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Only if you see Bitcoin as a zero sum game like forex, which it is not. Bitcoin is more like a real world economy, when the economy expands/grows, everyone benefits.

old_engineer

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Another way to look at bitcoin is that people with excess fiat are continuously pooling it together in exchanges, but then only people that need fiat right now are withdrawing from the exchanges. Those that don't need fiat also benefit in the knowledge that if they need fiat, they can get it by raiding their bitcoin "savings account" -- often at multiples of what they put into the account -- which gives them peace of mind. So no, it's not a zero-sum game, there's more going on.

seleme

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Duelbits.com

Quote from: trepper on April 30, 2013, 02:41:55 AM

Quote from: seleme on April 29, 2013, 11:43:11 PM

How about we make this post the last one here. It's really stupid and pointless thread (many are though but this one is special).

Aren't you a little bit unfair ( fanatic?) on this one?

I've hardly found anything but stupid and pointless threads in the speculation subforum Grin

At least, this post does not pretend that he can predict the future...

Yeah, I've said many are stupid and pointless but this looks fundamentally pointless.

Tirapon

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If Bitcoin teaches the world that no money has 'intrinsic' value, and that the real wealth comes from our own productivity - then EVERYONE will benefit.

If you don't see that happening, just buy some bitcoins now and keep them safe.

nicolazza

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Quote from: Buffer Overflow on April 30, 2013, 04:05:08 AM

Quote from: etheral on April 29, 2013, 08:35:54 PM

Do you understand that it's impossible for everyone to win?

Quote from Bitcoin wiki:
"Bitcoin has an expected win-win outcome. Early and present adopters profit from the rise in value as Bitcoins become better understood and in turn demanded by the public at large. All adopters benefit from the usefulness of a reliable and widely-accepted decentralized peer-to-peer currency."

Everybody wins that embraces it. What are you talking about?

win

Buffer Overflow

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Quote from: etheral on April 29, 2013, 08:35:54 PM

Do you understand that it's impossible for everyone to win?

Quote from Bitcoin wiki:
"Bitcoin has an expected win-win outcome. Early and present adopters profit from the rise in value as Bitcoins become better understood and in turn demanded by the public at large. All adopters benefit from the usefulness of a reliable and widely-accepted decentralized peer-to-peer currency."

Everybody wins that embraces it. What are you talking about?

herzmeister

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The 4000 year old bubble.

Who won, who lost?

ManBearPig

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"Don't go in the trollbox, trollbox, trollbox"

I disagree.

If you're investing or speculating then you can't claim a benefit is your right - you're taking the risks, you deserve the ups and the downs.

As a transactional currency, many, many more will benefit from a cryptocurrency than they would with the old, slow, fallible way.

Therefore as Bitcoin's use in this way grows, the amount saved in credit card fees, wire transfers, chargebacks etc. is taken out of PayPal's or Visa's or a scammer's or your bank's pockets.

The existing financial organisations will be the biggest losers in this game. Much more so than any investors who fail to make a profit in a long-term bull market.

Now, doesn't that sound like everyone who matters benefits?

anu

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Quote from: 1Pakis on April 30, 2013, 12:02:47 AM

If the OP started mining on 03/01/2009, would he had made that post?
Late adopters whining.

Everyone is a late adopter when he adopts Bitcoin. I was a late adopter in Summer 2011. Do you hear me whining? Tongue

nicolazza

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i just hold, i have strong hands. while day traders win/lose/have fun, i build my bitcoin related site and wait for a price over 1k$.
i'll have NOT a lot of fiat, but a lot of purchasing power in the bitcoin world.

trepper

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Quote from: seleme on April 29, 2013, 11:43:11 PM

How about we make this post the last one here. It's really stupid and pointless thread (many are though but this one is special).

Aren't you a little bit unfair ( fanatic?) on this one?

I've hardly found anything but stupid and pointless threads in the speculation subforum Grin

At least, this post does not pretend that he can predict the future...

Geist

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Quote from: BitChick on April 30, 2013, 12:45:48 AM

Quote from: 1Pakis on April 30, 2013, 12:02:47 AM

If the OP started mining on 03/01/2009, would he had made that post?
Late adopters whining.

In a few years there will be people whining that they did not buy in 2013. It is just the nature of this.

I like to think about it like this: I'm buying hundreds of mBTC now while their cheap, and I'll be rich when an mBTC hits $266. Wink

BitChick

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Quote from: 1Pakis on April 30, 2013, 12:02:47 AM

If the OP started mining on 03/01/2009, would he had made that post?
Late adopters whining.

In a few years there will be people whining that they did not buy in 2013. It is just the nature of this. However, people will sell out at different stages. Eventually BTC will be more stable. It will be a volatile ride for a while though.

Topic: It's impossible for EVERYONE to benefit (Read 3612 times)