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Topic: I've got accused of scamming - Thanks Vod - Suggestion for the future - page 2. (Read 3190 times)

hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Negative trust rating Vod left:

Quote
This user is selling Microsoft product keys they get from MSDN subscriptions. This is not allowed. Microsoft does not sell product keys without Certificate of Authenticity.

All it will take is a single person to report his illegal purchase of a Microsoft key (even someone who intentionally buys just to report), then Microsoft can trace it back to the original MSDN subscription that generated that key.

ALL keys generated from that MSDN account will then become invalidated (i.e. stop working) and Skyenet will NOT give you your money back.

This is a scam. Do not purchase keys from this account!

Why are you suddenly bringing hacking and stolen CCs into this? You know that this is something you can't prove right? Your initial claim sounded more reasonable, are you trying to make this sound worse now?
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
Vod on all other issuesr I side with you but just drop it, hes not doing anything wrong, and you shouldn't be selectively calling out some people doing something you don't agree with, but is not against the rules of the forum so I don't think you should be able to call them a scammer.

He is selling stolen product keys, taking them away from the rightful owner.

Despite what you guys think, you don't get an unlimited amount of keys.  There is a limit on each account.  It's not fair for the owner to go online and find out he has no more Windows keys left because a thief stole them all.

If you don't agree with this, we'll just have to live with that.   Undecided

What's hard to accept is that your own love for the future of MSCORP is interacting with how you rate the reliability of someone on this forum.   And because you're sitting in a unique (or almost unique) position where your opinions are included by default for all users who don't remove them this means that MSCORP is deciding who and who isn't reliable to trade with on bitcointalk.org.

Don't you think you ought to focus on the actual scammers who aren't representing themselves honestly?  If this guy is honestly providing the service he says he provides, how is this a scam?

I'm surprised that you don't see how problematic this is.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
Weren't you saying it's illegal to sell those keys because it's against microsoft's ToS a day or so ago? Now you're talking about stolen CCs and hackers...  Huh

I think you are confusing my posts with someone else.

But, it IS against Microsoft's TOS to sell keys.  These scammers don't care - the accounts are stolen.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Ever wanted to run your own casino? PM me for info
Vod on all other issuesr I side with you but just drop it, hes not doing anything wrong, and you shouldn't be selectively calling out some people doing something you don't agree with, but is not against the rules of the forum so I don't think you should be able to call them a scammer.

He is selling stolen product keys, taking them away from the rightful owner.

Despite what you guys think, you don't get an unlimited amount of keys.  There is a limit on each account.  It's not fair for the owner to go online and find out he has no more Windows keys left because a thief stole them all.

If you don't agree with this, we'll just have to live with that.   Undecided
Are you sure they are stolen? Many starbucks cards, netflix coder, all that is priced much less than retail, but are those all stolen too? If you can PROVE that they are stolen then yes he is in the wrong but even then he is still allowed to sell thim.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Vod on all other issuesr I side with you but just drop it, hes not doing anything wrong, and you shouldn't be selectively calling out some people doing something you don't agree with, but is not against the rules of the forum so I don't think you should be able to call them a scammer.

He is selling stolen product keys, taking them away from the rightful owner.

Despite what you guys think, you don't get an unlimited amount of keys.  There is a limit on each account.  It's not fair for the owner to go online and find out he has no more Windows keys left because a thief stole them all.

If you don't agree with this, we'll just have to live with that.   Undecided

Weren't you saying it's illegal to sell those keys because it's against microsoft's ToS a day or so ago? Now you're talking about stolen CCs and hackers...  Huh
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
Vod on all other issuesr I side with you but just drop it, hes not doing anything wrong, and you shouldn't be selectively calling out some people doing something you don't agree with, but is not against the rules of the forum so I don't think you should be able to call them a scammer.

He is selling stolen product keys, taking them away from the rightful owner.

Despite what you guys think, you don't get an unlimited amount of keys.  There is a limit on each account.  It's not fair for the owner to go online and find out he has no more Windows keys left because a thief stole them all.

If you don't agree with this, we'll just have to live with that.   Undecided
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Ever wanted to run your own casino? PM me for info
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.

I didn't know that, about the stolen credit cards.

I was mad at you first man, but in one way, you opened my eyes.

Glad to hear it.  Just please stop selling MSDN keys immediately, so I can remove the negative trust in the future.  Smiley

What about the larger issues raised in this thread?  You're pretty committed to remaining the Microsoft Intellectual Property Division of this forum, it would seem.  Who is going to represent other, non-bitcoin affiliated companies and interests?  Why does MSCorp get a seat on Default Trust but Apple, ASCAP, Netflix, etc do not?

Maybe some other trusted members who have vested interests in one of those technologies can step forward?  I can't do all the work...  Undecided
Vod on all other issuesr I side with you but just drop it, hes not doing anything wrong, and you shouldn't be selectively calling out some people doing something you don't agree with, but is not against the rules of the forum so I don't think you should be able to call them a scammer.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.

I didn't know that, about the stolen credit cards.

I was mad at you first man, but in one way, you opened my eyes.

Glad to hear it.  Just please stop selling MSDN keys immediately, so I can remove the negative trust in the future.  Smiley

What about the larger issues raised in this thread?  You're pretty committed to remaining the Microsoft Intellectual Property Division of this forum, it would seem.  Who is going to represent other, non-bitcoin affiliated companies and interests?  Why does MSCorp get a seat on Default Trust but Apple, ASCAP, Netflix, etc do not?

Maybe some other trusted members who have vested interests in one of those technologies can step forward?  I can't do all the work...  Undecided
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Ever wanted to run your own casino? PM me for info
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.

I didn't know that, about the stolen credit cards.

I was mad at you first man, but in one way, you opened my eyes.

Glad to hear it.  Just please stop selling MSDN keys immediately, so I can remove the negative trust in the future.  Smiley

What about the larger issues raised in this thread?  You're pretty committed to remaining the Microsoft Intellectual Property Division of this forum, it would seem.  Who is going to represent other, non-bitcoin affiliated companies and interests?  Why does MSCorp get a seat on Default Trust but Apple, ASCAP, Netflix, etc do not?
^ +1
Exactly, personal bias should not be affecting the forum's trust system. If you make people stop selling MSDN keys immediately, every single other key has to be stopped as well, its only fair. Just because of personal bias you can't call a person a scammer and someone else not a scammer even though they are doing the same thing
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.

I didn't know that, about the stolen credit cards.

I was mad at you first man, but in one way, you opened my eyes.

Glad to hear it.  Just please stop selling MSDN keys immediately, so I can remove the negative trust in the future.  Smiley

What about the larger issues raised in this thread?  You're pretty committed to remaining the Microsoft Intellectual Property Division of this forum, it would seem.  Who is going to represent other, non-bitcoin affiliated companies and interests?  Why does MSCorp get a seat on Default Trust but Apple, ASCAP, Netflix, etc do not?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.

I didn't know that, about the stolen credit cards.

I was mad at you first man, but in one way, you opened my eyes.

Glad to hear it.  Just please stop selling MSDN keys immediately, so I can remove the negative trust in the future.  Smiley

Going to bed now, I'll update my thread tomorrow.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.

I didn't know that, about the stolen credit cards.

I was mad at you first man, but in one way, you opened my eyes.

Glad to hear it.  Just please stop selling MSDN keys immediately, so I can remove the negative trust in the future.  Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.

I didn't know that, about the stolen credit cards.

I was mad at you first man, but in one way, you opened my eyes.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

If you can prove you obtained it via non-fraudulent means, then I have no problem with you selling anything

But the fact is most of the Xbox codes are purchased using stolen credit cards, and eventually become deactivated.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I think that since there is a clear conflict of interest with Vod in these cases since he has a financial interest in Microsoft that he should not be giving negative trust for the sole reason that the sellers are selling MSDN keys.

Everyone who buys a copy of Windows has a financial interest in Microsoft.  You want the product you paid for to keep getting patched, don't you?

In my case, I've invested time and money to become certified.  I don't work for Microsoft - I work with their products.  If Microsoft were to go under, all the money and time I spent would become useless.

Alright, I agree with you on this one. Although we are not stealing a product (like downloading a movie), we are taking away their profit. I agree with the fact that Microsoft gives us 10 years of support per OS and a lot of years for Office.

I'm asking you one thing though. What do you think about selling Xbox Live Gold?

I'll think of you're offer of stopping the Microsoft key selling business and start something else. Just give me some time.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Bitcoins also are illegal to use and are considered to be used for money laundering purposes. So in that sense, all the users here should get negative trust  Cheesy

I don't know how many similar threads are going to come up as I have seen numerous threads in the Scam Accusation section as well.

Not necessary, in some country bitcoin "laundering" is not illegal instead they are trying to regulate it (but it's not so simply).
legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1094
Bitcoins also are illegal to use and are considered to be used for money laundering purposes. So in that sense, all the users here should get negative trust  Cheesy

I don't know how many similar threads are going to come up as I have seen numerous threads in the Scam Accusation section as well.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Ever wanted to run your own casino? PM me for info
His personal life and bias over microsoft should not get in the way. I agree with vod on most things but this is just bias. People should be allowed to sell things, and if they aren't stealing money or scamming they should not be left neg trust.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
I think that since there is a clear conflict of interest with Vod in these cases since he has a financial interest in Microsoft that he should not be giving negative trust for the sole reason that the sellers are selling MSDN keys.

Everyone who buys a copy of Windows has a financial interest in Microsoft.  You want the product you paid for to keep getting patched, don't you?

In my case, I've invested time and money to become certified.  I don't work for Microsoft - I work with their products.  If Microsoft were to go under, all the money and time I spent would become useless.


In my opinion this right here is a conflict of the trust system. He quoted that he invested time and money to become certified to work with their products and that if they collapse then all his effort would have been in vain. Now he having said that, that is stating that he did post the -trust because it could at some point help hinder his previous efforts of making money with Microsoft products. I believe now with seeing this statements that he did this with intentions of harming the people getting rid of the MSDN Keys. While it is not against forum rules to sell them, he's put in a position that he can either help or hurt the people getting rid of them. He can not know that if the people getting rid of the keys are stolen or anything to that effect. He also does not know if the people getting rid of the keys will refund the people that purchased them if the key becomes invalid. Since he is doing this to somewhat protect his investment, he is still under a certain obligation by forum rules NOT to abuse the trust system, which by his own statement I feel does. This is just a personal opinion I am intitled to, and have never met, talked, had buisness with on this account or any other for that matter. So I have no bias judgement to pass along other than what I see here. As stated this is just one persons opinion.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
I think that since there is a clear conflict of interest with Vod in these cases since he has a financial interest in Microsoft that he should not be giving negative trust for the sole reason that the sellers are selling MSDN keys.

Everyone who buys a copy of Windows has a financial interest in Microsoft.  You want the product you paid for to keep getting patched, don't you?

In my case, I've invested time and money to become certified.  I don't work for Microsoft - I work with their products.  If Microsoft were to go under, all the money and time I spent would become useless.

It does seem a bridge to far to me that you've decided that since you value the IP of a particular company that you're going to neg-rep anyone who does anything in violation of that IP.  I'm not saying you don't have a right in general to put negative trust on people, but given your status in default trust, I think you should reconsider what actually deserves to be neg-repped.

Imagine if Microsoft comes out with something like google-wallet or apple-pay and then becomes a direct competitor of bitcoin.  Perhaps at some point Microsoft lobbies congress of USA to pass laws to prohibit usage of bitcoin in order to promote their own objectives.  Would you then decide that Microsoft's opinion is what should dictate who and who isn't neg-repped on this forum?

Another example, ASCAP, the trade group for music and arts publishers, would have us believe that any media file which doesn't contain DRM is prirated.  This is not actually the case but if ASCAP gets its way, eventually laws will be passed to regulate all DRM-free media.  If someone appeared on this forum and began selling DRM-free music (and doing so successfully, not scamming but actually going through with sales as advertized), would you decide that because ASCAP doesn't like this behavior and has lobbied to create laws to restrict it that the person selling DRM-free music should be neg-repped "trade with extreme caution".

Or, consider the OP's suggestion, perhaps if you go this route you need to be consistent and make sure to neg-rep anyone selling anything which might have questionable IP status.  I think the more sane route is for you to stay out of the copyright enforcement business and focus on actual scams in which someone doesn't provide the service they purport to.

In my opinion, as someone on default trust who does a lot of work "scambusting" you need to consider carefully what counts as a scam.  It's seems quite clear to me that selling microsoft accounts, if they are actually selling them, is not scamming.  It may be dishonest in your opinion, but if they are providing the service they advertize to provide then how are they "scamming"?

Perhaps another option would be to represent yourself more openly.  Change your username to "microsoft intellectual property patrol" and see if Theymos leaves you default trust.  Smiley



I think that since there is a clear conflict of interest with Vod in these cases since he has a financial interest in Microsoft that he should not be giving negative trust for the sole reason that the sellers are selling MSDN keys.

Everyone who buys a copy of Windows has a financial interest in Microsoft.  You want the product you paid for to keep getting patched, don't you?

In my case, I've invested time and money to become certified.  I don't work for Microsoft - I work with their products.  If Microsoft were to go under, all the money and time I spent would become useless.

This is the sad state of affairs that RMS predicted a long time ago.  You've given away your own freedom in exchange for the hope that someone else can manage that for you.  Too bad you're not interested in learning about free/libre open-source software that doesn't die just because a company does.  Real software is owned by the community of users and lives as long as that community exists (eg: bitcoin!), not according to the vagaries of a capitalist market.
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