To me, game theory is simplistic.
It may be alien-tech advanced AI analytics to some, but not to me.
Game theory is fanciful and sounds sophisticated to some, but not to me.
Sorry.
Topic: John Nash created bitcoin - page 6. (Read 22273 times)
For example, let's take world cup final of football, there is high stake , and good players on both sides.
You think players are going to just be following their emotion in their corner, of course not, they have strategy, plans, information on the other, because it's like this you win.
It's same with poker and with trading.
From the moment there are interest engaged, it make in sort understanding of the game rule and making strategy to gain advantage out of the game will increase the likelylness of winning.
And people who play emotionally or without plan will loose their stake to better player, and in any case are not really a huge variable factor to consider in the final outcome.
The highly volatile proba are on world cup final with good player who have experience and strategy, it's where the probabilities are very sharp , and the stake high , because the risk is higher and the outcome is less predictible.
The thing with huge pow & high speculative value drive to this sort of model of un stability on this surface match, but the behavior induced by the stake to follow the rule will prevail, and in any case you know there is money to be made in any case through the constant that emerge like people will still buy seat to see the match, and it's how smart game theory works
http://www.thehardtackle.com/2012/penalty-in-football-follows-nash-equilibrium/
A penalty in football is the epitome of unpredictability – one which affects both teams on the field. After being introduced by William McCrum in 1891, penalty kicks have been analyzed and dissected by almost anyone who has played or watched football. The sense of unpredictability also attracts bookies, and it is common to place a bet on any penalty kick almost anywhere, legal or otherwise.
Penalties have often decided World Cups, European Cups and even heated derby matches. From Roberto Baggio in 1994 to John Terry in 2008, penalties have gotten the better of the bravest minds. Should he shoot left, or right? Or should he shoot straight? On the face of it, it appears as a totally unpredictable course of action. However, as we will see, even such an unpredictable action follows the laws of Equilibrium, more specifically the Nash Equilibrium.
Penalties in football can be thought of as a zero-sum game. That means, for one to win, the other has to lose. If we think of this in terms of the Probability Theory, assigning arbitrary values like 1 for victory and -1 for defeat, we can easily see how this is a zero-sum game. Penalty taking, in essence follows a Mixed Strategy Nash Equilibrium. That means, even if a player knows in which direction the keeper will jump, he will not change the direction of his shot. Whether that action leads to a goal or a save is irrelevant to this article as here we are trying to understand the dynamics of the underlying equilibrium.
You think players are going to just be following their emotion in their corner, of course not, they have strategy, plans, information on the other, because it's like this you win.
It's same with poker and with trading.
From the moment there are interest engaged, it make in sort understanding of the game rule and making strategy to gain advantage out of the game will increase the likelylness of winning.
And people who play emotionally or without plan will loose their stake to better player, and in any case are not really a huge variable factor to consider in the final outcome.
The highly volatile proba are on world cup final with good player who have experience and strategy, it's where the probabilities are very sharp , and the stake high , because the risk is higher and the outcome is less predictible.
The thing with huge pow & high speculative value drive to this sort of model of un stability on this surface match, but the behavior induced by the stake to follow the rule will prevail, and in any case you know there is money to be made in any case through the constant that emerge like people will still buy seat to see the match, and it's how smart game theory works
http://www.thehardtackle.com/2012/penalty-in-football-follows-nash-equilibrium/
A penalty in football is the epitome of unpredictability – one which affects both teams on the field. After being introduced by William McCrum in 1891, penalty kicks have been analyzed and dissected by almost anyone who has played or watched football. The sense of unpredictability also attracts bookies, and it is common to place a bet on any penalty kick almost anywhere, legal or otherwise.
Penalties have often decided World Cups, European Cups and even heated derby matches. From Roberto Baggio in 1994 to John Terry in 2008, penalties have gotten the better of the bravest minds. Should he shoot left, or right? Or should he shoot straight? On the face of it, it appears as a totally unpredictable course of action. However, as we will see, even such an unpredictable action follows the laws of Equilibrium, more specifically the Nash Equilibrium.
Penalties in football can be thought of as a zero-sum game. That means, for one to win, the other has to lose. If we think of this in terms of the Probability Theory, assigning arbitrary values like 1 for victory and -1 for defeat, we can easily see how this is a zero-sum game. Penalty taking, in essence follows a Mixed Strategy Nash Equilibrium. That means, even if a player knows in which direction the keeper will jump, he will not change the direction of his shot. Whether that action leads to a goal or a save is irrelevant to this article as here we are trying to understand the dynamics of the underlying equilibrium.
"Likely" is a form of probability.
Unless it is deterministic, in which it won't be called "game theory".
Unless it is deterministic, in which it won't be called "game theory".
Bitcoin is not deterministic
"Likely" is a form of probability.
Unless it is deterministic, in which it won't be called "game theory".
Unless it is deterministic, in which it won't be called "game theory".
You see , you use proba term "very often" and you make game theory based on how likely, or how often a person would do this or that
And neurology can very well show how "irrational choice" also have their functiun with physiology and all, even if they are "unconscious", aka we are not conscious of them, but it doesnt mean their reaction to certain situation is completely random and unpredictible. Animal dont have reason, their behavior is only more predictible.
Skynet always trick human with their émotions, they are much easier to predict than reasoned strategy
But game theory works when there is clear manner for players to see how likely this decision will be rewarding vs another, taking in account the likelylness of the outcome.
And neurology can very well show how "irrational choice" also have their functiun with physiology and all, even if they are "unconscious", aka we are not conscious of them, but it doesnt mean their reaction to certain situation is completely random and unpredictible. Animal dont have reason, their behavior is only more predictible.
Skynet always trick human with their émotions, they are much easier to predict than reasoned strategy
But game theory works when there is clear manner for players to see how likely this decision will be rewarding vs another, taking in account the likelylness of the outcome.
Im not sure what definition of rational you use
Rational = decision based on or in accordance with reason or logic. Example, you will not eat turd when you know turd is not edible. Irrational would mean you eat turd when you already know its not edible.
But people following emotion of what ever is included in game theory The case where game theory are move obvious is when there is high reward for low risk, let say you press A you gain 1m, you press B you get a kick in the but, how likely people will press A
That's not game theory. That's no-brainer theory.
When potential gain and reward are easy to see it works well. And it's made to deal mostly with economic interest, where is no quantifiable interest and risk it's useless, but btc is full of quantifiable interest and risk
Which is why I gave 2 options. To be richer by $1 trillion, or stays the same. You can quantify the rest, i.e. insurance, cost of cremation, lost of income due to disgrace, etc.
Proba are used everyday in many area like insurance and there is lot $$ with it. Same for casino. And it's not based on assumption of belief or "rationality". But playing rationnelly with good info is more likely to win.
Like OROBTC has just pointed out, that Tversky and Kahneman (two famous Israeli psychologists) have proven over and over again that humans very often do NOT behave rationally, for a variety of reasons. Even in experiments where the mathematical parameters are pretty clear. Even psychologists have fallen for the irrational choices in those experiments. There is also a book titled "Predictably Irrational" by Dan Ariely. How can a thesis be made on the basis of "playing rationally" and be considered valid, when it is already scientifically proven and clear that is not even true?
Rational = decision based on or in accordance with reason or logic. Example, you will not eat turd when you know turd is not edible. Irrational would mean you eat turd when you already know its not edible.
But people following emotion of what ever is included in game theory
The case where game theory are move obvious is when there is high reward for low risk, let say you press A you gain 1m, you press B you get a kick in the but, how likely people will press A That's not game theory. That's no-brainer theory.
When potential gain and reward are easy to see it works well. And it's made to deal mostly with economic interest, where is no quantifiable interest and risk it's useless, but btc is full of quantifiable interest and risk
Which is why I gave 2 options. To be richer by $1 trillion, or stays the same. You can quantify the rest, i.e. insurance, cost of cremation, lost of income due to disgrace, etc.
Proba are used everyday in many area
like insurance and there is lot $$ with it. Same for casino. And it's not based on assumption of belief or "rationality". But playing rationnelly with good info is more likely to win.Like OROBTC has just pointed out, that Tversky and Kahneman (two famous Israeli psychologists) have proven over and over again that humans very often do NOT behave rationally, for a variety of reasons. Even in experiments where the mathematical parameters are pretty clear. Even psychologists have fallen for the irrational choices in those experiments. There is also a book titled "Predictably Irrational" by Dan Ariely. How can a thesis be made on the basis of "playing rationally" and be considered valid, when it is already scientifically proven and clear that is not even true?
With game theory it's not mainly about rationality, but how likely someone who want to get some reward from the game would act given this or that informations.
It works mostly for economic scenario, when there are interest engaged , and the only given is that the person want to make profits or "win the game" when all other actors are also willing to do the same.
It's a model to tell how likely a person is going to make this or that decision given this or that infos, and how the reward balance out the risk to decide on a strategy.
The higher the stake, the better it works, because it's very un likely someone would engage big stake without at least thinking twice to the potential benefits/loss.
Game theory are all about reaction to risk and unknown, it's not that much about rationality, but how a person can percieve his own interest, and the higher the stake, the better game theory will apply.
It works mostly for economic scenario, when there are interest engaged , and the only given is that the person want to make profits or "win the game" when all other actors are also willing to do the same.
It's a model to tell how likely a person is going to make this or that decision given this or that infos, and how the reward balance out the risk to decide on a strategy.
The higher the stake, the better it works, because it's very un likely someone would engage big stake without at least thinking twice to the potential benefits/loss.
Game theory are all about reaction to risk and unknown, it's not that much about rationality, but how a person can percieve his own interest, and the higher the stake, the better game theory will apply.
You can't exclude rationality from game theory analysis.
A person is expected to be perfectly rational in game theory but that's never the case in real life.
A lot of information can be given (and available) to a person but it is not necessary that he will always choose the most objective one.
In most cases he will choose the one that is most gratifying to his sensual satisfaction and desire, never mind if his decision will screw him up hard later.
Additionally, a person make decision not on the potential risk/reward because that would involve too much thinking for him, but on the most immediate risk/reward that he can receive within a short period of time, never mind if a delayed risk/reward will be much better unless he is 100% assured of it.
In terms of getting 100% assurance, nobody in real life really has it.
Everyone will have to make a decision based on lack of information.
Game theory is just too simplistic, and it works only in simplistic situations.
We can make as many fanciful equations to be associated with it but its just to make it appear fanciful as if it is relevant, because if equations are really relevant then we are just not including enough factors into the equations, and the factors involved are far more than we may realize we know.
Thus if we are not including enough factors into the equation to make the right analysis, can we claim that game theory analysis is valid?
It's like trying to compute what is e using the formula of mc instead of mc^2.
Let's say you're in a "massive stake" situation.
You are given 2 options to choose from:
Option A: Be given $1 trillion dollar worth of assets of your own choosing (in cash, or in gold, or in bitcoin, or in stocks, or in bonds, or in real estate, or a mixture of any of them) right away.
Option B: Your wife is killed right away.
Dilemma: If you choose one of them, the other one will be lost, i.e. if you choose Option B, you will lose Option A, and vice versa.
Which option will you choose?
Game theory does not factor in how materialistic you are, does not factor in how affectionate you are to your wife, does not factor in how merciful you are, does not factor in your current economic situation, etc etc etc.
But if game theory was to factor in all these factors of influence, the game theory would be much more complicated than it now is.
Most probably even you would not be interested to dabble in inxt by then.
Edit:
Sorry for any confusion. The options are supposed to say if you choose option A (i.e. be filthy rich), you will lose your wife. And if you choose option B (i.e. spare your wife), you will lose $1 trillion worth of wealth.
Im not sure what definition of rational you use
But people following emotion of what ever is included in game theory
The case where game theory are move obvious is when there is high reward for low risk, let say you press A you gain 1m, you press B you get a kick in the but, how likely people will press A When potential gain and reward are easy to see it works well. And it's made to deal mostly with economic interest, where is no quantifiable interest and risk it's useless, but btc is full of quantifiable interest and risk
Proba are used everyday in many area
like insurance and there is lot $$ with it. Same for casino. And it's not based on assumption of belief or "rationality". But playing rationnelly with good info is more likely to win. 
...
Tversky and Kahneman (two famous Israeli psychologists) have proven over and over again that humans very often do NOT behave rationally, for a variety of reasons. Even in experiments where the mathematical parameters are pretty clear. Even psychologists have fallen for the irrational choices in those experiments.
Lack of information is whole 'nother topic, yep responses can become even less rational (or at least less predictable) then.
Tversky and Kahneman (two famous Israeli psychologists) have proven over and over again that humans very often do NOT behave rationally, for a variety of reasons. Even in experiments where the mathematical parameters are pretty clear. Even psychologists have fallen for the irrational choices in those experiments.
Lack of information is whole 'nother topic, yep responses can become even less rational (or at least less predictable) then.
With game theory it's not mainly about rationality, but how likely someone who want to get some reward from the game would act given this or that informations.
It works mostly for economic scenario, when there are interest engaged , and the only given is that the person want to make profits or "win the game" when all other actors are also willing to do the same.
It's a model to tell how likely a person is going to make this or that decision given this or that infos, and how the reward balance out the risk to decide on a strategy.
The higher the stake, the better it works, because it's very un likely someone would engage big stake without at least thinking twice to the potential benefits/loss.
Game theory are all about reaction to risk and unknown, it's not that much about rationality, but how a person can percieve his own interest, and the higher the stake, the better game theory will apply.
It works mostly for economic scenario, when there are interest engaged , and the only given is that the person want to make profits or "win the game" when all other actors are also willing to do the same.
It's a model to tell how likely a person is going to make this or that decision given this or that infos, and how the reward balance out the risk to decide on a strategy.
The higher the stake, the better it works, because it's very un likely someone would engage big stake without at least thinking twice to the potential benefits/loss.
Game theory are all about reaction to risk and unknown, it's not that much about rationality, but how a person can percieve his own interest, and the higher the stake, the better game theory will apply.
You can't exclude rationality from game theory analysis.
A person is expected to be perfectly rational in game theory but that's never the case in real life.
A lot of information can be given (and available) to a person but it is not necessary that he will always choose the most objective one.
In most cases he will choose the one that is most gratifying to his sensual satisfaction and desire, never mind if his decision will screw him up hard later.
Additionally, a person make decision not on the potential risk/reward because that would involve too much thinking for him, but on the most immediate risk/reward that he can receive within a short period of time, never mind if a delayed risk/reward will be much better unless he is 100% assured of it.
In terms of getting 100% assurance, nobody in real life really has it.
Everyone will have to make a decision based on lack of information.
Game theory is just too simplistic, and it works only in simplistic situations.
We can make as many fanciful equations to be associated with it but its just to make it appear fanciful as if it is relevant, because if equations are really relevant then we are just not including enough factors into the equations, and the factors involved are far more than we may realize we know.
Thus if we are not including enough factors into the equation to make the right analysis, can we claim that game theory analysis is valid?
It's like trying to compute what is e using the formula of mc instead of mc^2.
Let's say you're in a "massive stake" situation.
You are given 2 options to choose from:
Option A: Be given $1 trillion dollar worth of assets of your own choosing (in cash, or in gold, or in bitcoin, or in stocks, or in bonds, or in real estate, or a mixture of any of them) right away.
Option B: Your wife is killed right away.
Dilemma: If you choose one of them, the other one will be lost, i.e. if you choose Option B, you will lose Option A, and vice versa.
Which option will you choose?
Game theory does not factor in how materialistic you are, does not factor in how affectionate you are to your wife, does not factor in how merciful you are, does not factor in your current economic situation, etc etc etc.
But if game theory was to factor in all these factors of influence, the game theory would be much more complicated than it now is.
Most probably even you would not be interested to dabble in it by then.
Edit:
Sorry for any confusion. The options are supposed to say if you choose option A (i.e. be filthy rich), you will lose your wife. And if you choose option B (i.e. spare your wife), you will lose $1 trillion worth of wealth.
- @iamnotback is absolutely convinced that Satoshi is Nash
You continue to lie. You're a habitual liar. How many times have I written I don't think Satoshi was Nash, but I think "Nash may have been UNWITTINGLY involved".
I hope you know the definition of the word UNWITTINGLY.
do you ever get tired of listening to yourself talk, i wonder?
dinofelis = iamnotback = trainscarwreck = jonald_fyookball
dinofelis = iamnotback = trainscarwreck = jonald_fyookball
Laugh out not-so-loud...
Two technological idiots wouldn't be able to distinguish a differential equation from a geometric series. They'd just say "its all greek".
In other words, who cares what you can't distinguish.
well you can tell the difference because
a) i don't talk about John Nash, ideal money, or "economic theories"
b) i don't say silly negative things like bitcoin is doomed or its too late
c) i don't promote the idea that bitcoin can't scale , shouldn't scale, won't change, shouldn't change, or won't get consensus
d) i don't troll or have a big head
All I ever talk about is Satoshi's original vision and simple straightforward on chain scaling with bigger blocks.
Everything else is noise and a distraction.
a) i don't talk about John Nash, ideal money, or "economic theories"
b) i don't say silly negative things like bitcoin is doomed or its too late
c) i don't promote the idea that bitcoin can't scale , shouldn't scale, won't change, shouldn't change, or won't get consensus
d) i don't troll or have a big head
All I ever talk about is Satoshi's original vision and simple straightforward on chain scaling with bigger blocks.
Everything else is noise and a distraction.
And that is why I can't distinguish you from any other idiot shill troll who has the entirely incorrect conceptualization of everything technological, game theory, and economics modeled.
You don't (none of you do!) even put your real photo on your avatar, and I do.
Quote from: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404
Finally, a lot of people confuse arrogance with ego. A-listers (and I am including myself, again, this time) are, as a rule, colossally arrogant. That is, they have utter confidence in their ability to meet challenges that would humble or break most people. Do not be fooled by the self-deprecating manner that many A-listers cultivate; it is a mask adopted for social purposes, mostly to avoid freaking out the normal monkeys. But this arrogance is not the same as egotism; in fact, in many ways it is the opposite. It is possible to be arrogant about one’s abilities compared to the statistically average human being and the range of challenges one is likely to encounter, but deeply and genuinely humble when dealing with peers or contemplating the vastness of one’s own ignorance and incapability relative to what one could imagine being. In fact, this combination of attitudes is completely typical of the A-listers I have known.
do you ever get tired of listening to yourself talk, i wonder?
dinofelis = iamnotback = trainscarwreck
dinofelis = iamnotback = trainscarwreck
That's because of Satoshi's evil genius, that rendered me/us totally schizophrenic. Just like Nash, BTW
Nobody will say im someone else because of my infalsifiable grammar
Did you ever wondered if you could be everyone else you talk to on the internet like fight club
This is why Casper tries to punish those that do not follow the rule ; but then this can be gamed too and you get a hopelessly complicated game-theoretical bungle.
How can the punishment mechanism be gamed? Can you describe an attack scenario against it?If there's nothing at stake (in both senses) with staking, your only stake is that the system works well. If the random deterministic choice of who can stake, is random enough, then it is also essentially impossible to BRIBE you into staking, because in order to find out WHOM to bribe, you'd need to spend a lot of "proof of work" and chances are you'll find one necessary staker who doesn't accept the bribe.
I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning. Anyone could be bribed to do whatever action (i.e. only build upon certain blocks, censor some kind of transactions/blocks etc.) and without block rewards the bribees would lose nothing (except maybe suffering from a loss of value of their stake due to the attack as such)As long as all tx in the blocks are the same it doesnt matter, if tx are plain invalid, it doesnt need the whole pow consencus for a node to detect it, same for spam, nodes just need to know they are on the same chain of valid tx, and only rules out the double spent, and they can already know if a tx is valid or not given a certain chain without requiring POW consensus.
This is why Casper tries to punish those that do not follow the rule ; but then this can be gamed too and you get a hopelessly complicated game-theoretical bungle.
How can the punishment mechanism be gamed? Can you describe an attack scenario against it?If there's nothing at stake (in both senses) with staking, your only stake is that the system works well. If the random deterministic choice of who can stake, is random enough, then it is also essentially impossible to BRIBE you into staking, because in order to find out WHOM to bribe, you'd need to spend a lot of "proof of work" and chances are you'll find one necessary staker who doesn't accept the bribe.
I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning. Anyone could be bribed to do whatever action (i.e. only build upon certain blocks, censor some kind of transactions/blocks etc.) and without block rewards the bribees would lose nothing (except maybe suffering from a loss of value of their stake due to the attack as such) The only way I can see that the fees won't rise egregiously on BTC on chain (with $trillionaire/$billionaire whales free riding on the rest of us) is if something can compete with Bitcoin such that the whales feel they are losing control of the blockchain (and eventually global) economy, and/or if fungible money can be removed as important from civilization.
You want people to point out your error.
However, I think whales will end up demanding a kickback from miners for their transaction fees, so that miners can jack up fees on non-whales. Whales can make this demand because they can refuse to send their transactions to miners which won't deal. Yet non-whales can't make a credible threat, because miners who generally offered lower fees would end up losing hashrate relative to those miners who didn't defect from the fee market. Thus I think you will probably see miners colluding to extract the maximum fees that gouge non-whales.
If the whole thesis of a fee that gets too high for average joe to use bitcoin is based on whales colluding, then here are my arguments.
1. That scenario of whales ($billionaires, elites, etc) colluding will NEVER happen.
2. Humans (whales, $billionaires, $millionaires, elites, etc) are never rational. Forget about game theory. It works only on simplistic binary situation. Humans are scientifically documented to be far more irrational than rational in decision-making.
3. The whales ($billionaires, power brokers, shadow elites, etc) would be owning over 50% of all bitcoin ever mined. If miners give way to their "colludion" (pardon my English it's not my fault that English is a stupid language) by making the non-whales pay up, that is economical nonsense.
1st, the miners are the gatekeepers. If the whales refuse to pay the fees, they can get the hell out from using bitcoin.
2nd, if all non-whales are pushed into alts, leaving only the whales, then the whales will pay the fee. "Colludion" makes no difference.
The pareto effect of 80:20.
-> 20% whales own 80% of bitcoin.
(whales pay 80% of total fee)
(non-whales pay 20% of total fee)
-> The whales collude not to pay fee and push out non-whales.
-> If miners comply, they will force the 20% non-whales to make up for the 80% difference. This is economically impractical. The miners are not advantaged by complying.
-> If miners don't comply, they will still earn the fee as usual. The whales have no choice but to continue using bitcoin and pay their share of the fee. The miners are not disadvantaged by not complying.
Your reasoning/logic based on game theory is flawed/incomplete.
Note: Businesses make their profit from servicing the rich (those who can afford the price), not from the poor (those who cannot afford the price). This is valid throughout all economic activities.
A dialogue...
Whale: I am not going to send you transaction if you charge me fee.
Miner A: Where will you send your transaction?
Whale: To miner B.
Miner B: So you want me to NOT charge you any fee?
Whale: Yes.
Miner B: And if I refuse?
Whale: I will take my business to miner C.
Miner C: What now?
Whale: Okay, I pay my fee to you.
Miner A & Miner B: Get lost!
Whale: Well, at least I still pay.
Miner A & Miner B: Bluffer!
The next whale (whale #2) shows up...
Whale 2: Hi! I am here to make a deal.
Miner A: Fuck off and die if it's about free transaction.
Whale 2: Urmmmm...... no. I pay.
Miner A: Good.
With game theory it's not mainly about rationality, but how likely someone who want to get some reward from the game would act given this or that informations.
It works mostly for economic scenario, when there are interest engaged , and the only given is that the person want to make profits or "win the game" when all other actors are also willing to do the same.
It's a model to tell how likely a person is going to make this or that decision given this or that infos, and how the reward balance out the risk to decide on a strategy.
The higher the stake, the better it works, because it's very un likely someone would engage big stake without at least thinking twice to the potential benefits/loss.
Game theory are all about reaction to risk and unknown, it's not that much about rationality, but how a person can percieve his own interest, and the higher the stake, the better game theory will apply.
In this dialog btw you show very well the two interwinded games for whales & miners
To put in math term it would end with two equations
one that define the speculative value of the coin, what make the coin attractive to trader according to any strategy they choose, and what influence trader choice and what make the coin looking profitable for a trader/investor
and the other related to mining profitability, and what risk a miner is willing to engage for the reward
One third interest is user who wants to rely on the system to make a tx but he has zero power.
and putting then those two equation in relation you would see they share a certain number of variable with their own matrixes of probability that would push some of the lowest probability variable ( less likely behavior) to some constant in favor of the more important criteria on the variables they share, to maximizes the likelylness of the following of the protocol for mutual interest of the big speculative forces engaged.
Well just quick shot to lay put the idea on the big lines lol
And im pretty sure it's not even that hard core to model with game theories. But it also incorporate other constant like inflation rate and maybe other factors that are not purely speculative value and mining reward/risk.
Bitcoin is where it is today not because it was relentlessly being promoted globally by a group of independent people with shared passion in bitcoin.
Humans in general has a sort of burn rate in whatever they do, i.e. they do not have the strong determination to carry out their plan locally, much less globally as we see from the forces behind bitcoin.
Humans in general have no interest nor passion in promoting the works of other people, i.e. they rather steal other people's idea, modify it into a different version, and claim their own brand.
Humans in general are weary of unsubstantiated promises by other people, i.e. no matter how good is an invention or innovation, most are unwilling to have full faith put into it especially when its future is still vague.
In bitcoin, we see the total opposite of the behaviors above, i.e. we see people relentlessly promoting bitcoin/blockchain globally, we see people giving praises to a guy name satoshi, we see people developing miners, investing millions, running exchanges to facilitate this invention called bitcoin.
Does it ever pop up in your mind, that all these are so unlike normal human behavior and have a feeling of strong suspicion to it?
How come it never come to your mind that the forces behind bitcoin may very well be the rothschilds and their agents?
Come to think of this, bitcoin is not the only great invention in our lifetime that has the power to totally disrupt the status quo.
Inventions like "free energy" existed too and have full power to disrupt the status quo but they all die out eventually because nobody (that is 3rd-party) promotes it and the media never talk about it in good light.
Bitcoin, on the other hand, has businesses opening up to develop miners to mine it, has exchanges opening up to facilitate its price-making, has education institutions giving grants to study it, has companies injecting millions into mining farms, has huge corporations adopting it as a form of payment, has governments recognizing it as legal currency, has politicians promoting it, etc etc, and yet all these never cross your mind that there could be something unknown behind it?
Yeah, bitcoin is great. And it's probably the one and only invention that you know of that can disrupt the status quo because every other equally great and disruptive inventions are not as widely promoted.
The kind of promoting I see behind bitcoin is very well organized, relentless, and organized, completely unlike the kind of force that you would see from a group people operating independently on his own.
And every day I keep seeing people talking about satoshi being a genius and bitcoin being a wonderful invention, I can't stop but think to myself, "Are these people really that stupid? Are these people just think based on what they are shown and told? Aren't they intelligent enough to question that there is something different with the force behind bitcoin? Can't they actually think outside of the box, independently?"
It's like humans have a very naive sense of how wonderful is the world, how bright and hopeful is the future, how promising will the future be with bitcoin, that everyone is good and honest, that there is no bad evil guys on earth, that everyone is good hearted and is out there to help and save.
And I would go like, "What???". It's like the current generations of humans on earth were descended from heaven where everyone is good and never bad/evil.
And if they were told there could be dishonest force behind every get-rich-quick scheme, that there could be sinister force behind bitcoin, etc, they will say I am crazy.
Simply wow.
But then if they were shown another great and disruptive invention that could save the world, these same people wouldn't lay an eye on the invention even for 10 seconds, much less spread good words around it.
And so I am led to believe people admire bitcoin is not because it is a great disruptive invention, but because everyone else is doing it so they are just following along with the herds.
And all the talks about how genius is satoshi and how disruptive and breakthrough is bitcoin, are all mere excuses.
Bitcoin, if it was really an independent invention, would die out within the first year of its existence.
Who is the persistent force behind bitcoin that elevate bitcoin from being a worthless piece of digital token to where it is today?
I can bet if I were to develop a much more powerful version of bitcoin and release it into the wild and just let the world work it out for me, it would die within a year.
But why is bitcoin different?
I am going to expect lots of dumb answers.
Humans in general has a sort of burn rate in whatever they do, i.e. they do not have the strong determination to carry out their plan locally, much less globally as we see from the forces behind bitcoin.
Humans in general have no interest nor passion in promoting the works of other people, i.e. they rather steal other people's idea, modify it into a different version, and claim their own brand.
Humans in general are weary of unsubstantiated promises by other people, i.e. no matter how good is an invention or innovation, most are unwilling to have full faith put into it especially when its future is still vague.
In bitcoin, we see the total opposite of the behaviors above, i.e. we see people relentlessly promoting bitcoin/blockchain globally, we see people giving praises to a guy name satoshi, we see people developing miners, investing millions, running exchanges to facilitate this invention called bitcoin.
Does it ever pop up in your mind, that all these are so unlike normal human behavior and have a feeling of strong suspicion to it?
How come it never come to your mind that the forces behind bitcoin may very well be the rothschilds and their agents?
Come to think of this, bitcoin is not the only great invention in our lifetime that has the power to totally disrupt the status quo.
Inventions like "free energy" existed too and have full power to disrupt the status quo but they all die out eventually because nobody (that is 3rd-party) promotes it and the media never talk about it in good light.
Bitcoin, on the other hand, has businesses opening up to develop miners to mine it, has exchanges opening up to facilitate its price-making, has education institutions giving grants to study it, has companies injecting millions into mining farms, has huge corporations adopting it as a form of payment, has governments recognizing it as legal currency, has politicians promoting it, etc etc, and yet all these never cross your mind that there could be something unknown behind it?
Yeah, bitcoin is great. And it's probably the one and only invention that you know of that can disrupt the status quo because every other equally great and disruptive inventions are not as widely promoted.
The kind of promoting I see behind bitcoin is very well organized, relentless, and organized, completely unlike the kind of force that you would see from a group people operating independently on his own.
And every day I keep seeing people talking about satoshi being a genius and bitcoin being a wonderful invention, I can't stop but think to myself, "Are these people really that stupid? Are these people just think based on what they are shown and told? Aren't they intelligent enough to question that there is something different with the force behind bitcoin? Can't they actually think outside of the box, independently?"
It's like humans have a very naive sense of how wonderful is the world, how bright and hopeful is the future, how promising will the future be with bitcoin, that everyone is good and honest, that there is no bad evil guys on earth, that everyone is good hearted and is out there to help and save.
And I would go like, "What???". It's like the current generations of humans on earth were descended from heaven where everyone is good and never bad/evil.
And if they were told there could be dishonest force behind every get-rich-quick scheme, that there could be sinister force behind bitcoin, etc, they will say I am crazy.
Simply wow.
But then if they were shown another great and disruptive invention that could save the world, these same people wouldn't lay an eye on the invention even for 10 seconds, much less spread good words around it.
And so I am led to believe people admire bitcoin is not because it is a great disruptive invention, but because everyone else is doing it so they are just following along with the herds.
And all the talks about how genius is satoshi and how disruptive and breakthrough is bitcoin, are all mere excuses.
Bitcoin, if it was really an independent invention, would die out within the first year of its existence.
Who is the persistent force behind bitcoin that elevate bitcoin from being a worthless piece of digital token to where it is today?
I can bet if I were to develop a much more powerful version of bitcoin and release it into the wild and just let the world work it out for me, it would die within a year.
But why is bitcoin different?
I am going to expect lots of dumb answers.
In the same time this state of things is not new and it's not impossible to think someone could see one step ahead of this
and integrate this behavior in game theory model bound to something else. You could just remove the reward, any one can mine new block out of the mem pool, if two blocks or tx are in common, a determinstic algorithm could be used to select between the two.
I agree with you. The error in most crypto is the reward, which gives rise to strategies that do not necessarily induce the desired properties. I also think that the only viable kind of crypto currency is where the validation/consensus decision is taken on a voluntary basis, the "reward" being that the system in which you are invested, keeps running correctly.
However, you still need a kind of deterministic decision *that is hard to game* (because you can do "proof of work" like calculations to get the deterministic solution in your advantage). This is why a kind of PoS signature scheme is necessary in my opinion.
@dinofelis, how many times do I have to repeat to you that voting is not free.
This is not about voting. PoS is not about voting, it is about acknowledging your set of received transactions, according to an agreed-upon (protocol) deterministic rule. The problem with PoS, namely "nothing at stake" only comes because of the reward. If there is no reward in PoS, there's no incentive to stake on multiple chains: you don't care. You stick to a rule, an arbitrary but deterministic rule, to stake on one chain, and not on another, because by not staking on the other chain, you don't lose a reward. As such, there is a normal solution to the "nothing at stake" problem: you apply the rules, because if you're not part of the cheaters that gain something by re-organizing the chain, you can only WIN by wanting the system to come to a consensus, no matter which one ; there's total indifference to what consensus and to whether you stake or not, if there's no reward. Your only stake is that there's a consensus that is reached, or the system in which you are a stake holder, crashes down.
In PoS, it is not difficult to define a rule that you only stake on one of the possible chains (deterministic rule). If you follow that rule, no "nothing at stake" problem occurs ; the only thing is that there's no incentive for you to follow that rule if there's a block reward ! This is why Casper tries to punish those that do not follow the rule ; but then this can be gamed too and you get a hopelessly complicated game-theoretical bungle. If there's nothing at stake (in both senses) with staking, your only stake is that the system works well. If the random deterministic choice of who can stake, is random enough, then it is also essentially impossible to BRIBE you into staking, because in order to find out WHOM to bribe, you'd need to spend a lot of "proof of work" and chances are you'll find one necessary staker who doesn't accept the bribe.
Of course, with sufficiently corrupt players, you can game the system ; and that's OK. The system shouldn't be too secure, and the real risk that the system will one day break down, protects it from too much hot air speculation. Only its real usage as a currency would determine most of the market cap, as it should, and no-one would dream to use it for a very long term hodling idiocy.
Exactly my thinking
Maybe you see now why I think the pow is not only about byzantine consensus on double spent and there is something else in the equation that is more important than mere consensus on the double spent
hence thinking there is still a kind of more or less secret plan on game theories and speculation aimed at trader and miners to make in sort the coin can reach and sustain high market cap and high mining difficulty, basically based on almost nithing, in relatively short time, and still nobody can really decide anything
In the early 60's(ish) when Nash fled the US to europe, allegedly delusional, this is the time he came up with Ideal Money. He said he was wanting to exchange his USD for the Swiss France, a money of superior quality. The Navy tracked him down and brought him back in chains (his words).
I suspect he was also mailing letters while outside of the US.
I suspect he was also mailing letters while outside of the US.
Bitcoin is where it is today not because it was relentlessly being promoted globally by a group of independent people with shared passion in bitcoin.
Humans in general has a sort of burn rate in whatever they do, i.e. they do not have the strong determination to carry out their plan locally, much less globally as we see from the forces behind bitcoin.
Humans in general have no interest nor passion in promoting the works of other people, i.e. they rather steal other people's idea, modify it into a different version, and claim their own brand.
Humans in general are weary of unsubstantiated promises by other people, i.e. no matter how good is an invention or innovation, most are unwilling to have full faith put into it especially when its future is still vague.
In bitcoin, we see the total opposite of the behaviors above, i.e. we see people relentlessly promoting bitcoin/blockchain globally, we see people giving praises to a guy name satoshi, we see people developing miners, investing millions, running exchanges to facilitate this invention called bitcoin.
Does it ever pop up in your mind, that all these are so unlike normal human behavior and have a feeling of strong suspicion to it?
How come it never come to your mind that the forces behind bitcoin may very well be the rothschilds and their agents?
Come to think of this, bitcoin is not the only great invention in our lifetime that has the power to totally disrupt the status quo.
Inventions like "free energy" existed too and have full power to disrupt the status quo but they all die out eventually because nobody (that is 3rd-party) promotes it and the media never talk about it in good light.
Bitcoin, on the other hand, has businesses opening up to develop miners to mine it, has exchanges opening up to facilitate its price-making, has education institutions giving grants to study it, has companies injecting millions into mining farms, has huge corporations adopting it as a form of payment, has governments recognizing it as legal currency, has politicians promoting it, etc etc, and yet all these never cross your mind that there could be something unknown behind it?
Yeah, bitcoin is great. And it's probably the one and only invention that you know of that can disrupt the status quo because every other equally great and disruptive inventions are not as widely promoted.
The kind of promoting I see behind bitcoin is very well organized, relentless, and organized, completely unlike the kind of force that you would see from a group people operating independently on his own.
And every day I keep seeing people talking about satoshi being a genius and bitcoin being a wonderful invention, I can't stop but think to myself, "Are these people really that stupid? Are these people just think based on what they are shown and told? Aren't they intelligent enough to question that there is something different with the force behind bitcoin? Can't they actually think outside of the box, independently?"
It's like humans have a very naive sense of how wonderful is the world, how bright and hopeful is the future, how promising will the future be with bitcoin, that everyone is good and honest, that there is no bad evil guys on earth, that everyone is good hearted and is out there to help and save.
And I would go like, "What???". It's like the current generations of humans on earth were descended from heaven where everyone is good and never bad/evil.
And if they were told there could be dishonest force behind every get-rich-quick scheme, that there could be sinister force behind bitcoin, etc, they will say I am crazy.
Simply wow.
But then if they were shown another great and disruptive invention that could save the world, these same people wouldn't lay an eye on the invention even for 10 seconds, much less spread good words around it.
And so I am led to believe people admire bitcoin is not because it is a great disruptive invention, but because everyone else is doing it so they are just following along with the herds.
And all the talks about how genius is satoshi and how disruptive and breakthrough is bitcoin, are all mere excuses.
Bitcoin, if it was really an independent invention, would die out within the first year of its existence.
Who is the persistent force behind bitcoin that elevate bitcoin from being a worthless piece of digital token to where it is today?
I can bet if I were to develop a much more powerful version of bitcoin and release it into the wild and just let the world work it out for me, it would die within a year.
But why is bitcoin different?
I am going to expect lots of dumb answers.
Humans in general has a sort of burn rate in whatever they do, i.e. they do not have the strong determination to carry out their plan locally, much less globally as we see from the forces behind bitcoin.
Humans in general have no interest nor passion in promoting the works of other people, i.e. they rather steal other people's idea, modify it into a different version, and claim their own brand.
Humans in general are weary of unsubstantiated promises by other people, i.e. no matter how good is an invention or innovation, most are unwilling to have full faith put into it especially when its future is still vague.
In bitcoin, we see the total opposite of the behaviors above, i.e. we see people relentlessly promoting bitcoin/blockchain globally, we see people giving praises to a guy name satoshi, we see people developing miners, investing millions, running exchanges to facilitate this invention called bitcoin.
Does it ever pop up in your mind, that all these are so unlike normal human behavior and have a feeling of strong suspicion to it?
How come it never come to your mind that the forces behind bitcoin may very well be the rothschilds and their agents?
Come to think of this, bitcoin is not the only great invention in our lifetime that has the power to totally disrupt the status quo.
Inventions like "free energy" existed too and have full power to disrupt the status quo but they all die out eventually because nobody (that is 3rd-party) promotes it and the media never talk about it in good light.
Bitcoin, on the other hand, has businesses opening up to develop miners to mine it, has exchanges opening up to facilitate its price-making, has education institutions giving grants to study it, has companies injecting millions into mining farms, has huge corporations adopting it as a form of payment, has governments recognizing it as legal currency, has politicians promoting it, etc etc, and yet all these never cross your mind that there could be something unknown behind it?
Yeah, bitcoin is great. And it's probably the one and only invention that you know of that can disrupt the status quo because every other equally great and disruptive inventions are not as widely promoted.
The kind of promoting I see behind bitcoin is very well organized, relentless, and organized, completely unlike the kind of force that you would see from a group people operating independently on his own.
And every day I keep seeing people talking about satoshi being a genius and bitcoin being a wonderful invention, I can't stop but think to myself, "Are these people really that stupid? Are these people just think based on what they are shown and told? Aren't they intelligent enough to question that there is something different with the force behind bitcoin? Can't they actually think outside of the box, independently?"
It's like humans have a very naive sense of how wonderful is the world, how bright and hopeful is the future, how promising will the future be with bitcoin, that everyone is good and honest, that there is no bad evil guys on earth, that everyone is good hearted and is out there to help and save.
And I would go like, "What???". It's like the current generations of humans on earth were descended from heaven where everyone is good and never bad/evil.
And if they were told there could be dishonest force behind every get-rich-quick scheme, that there could be sinister force behind bitcoin, etc, they will say I am crazy.
Simply wow.
But then if they were shown another great and disruptive invention that could save the world, these same people wouldn't lay an eye on the invention even for 10 seconds, much less spread good words around it.
And so I am led to believe people admire bitcoin is not because it is a great disruptive invention, but because everyone else is doing it so they are just following along with the herds.
And all the talks about how genius is satoshi and how disruptive and breakthrough is bitcoin, are all mere excuses.
Bitcoin, if it was really an independent invention, would die out within the first year of its existence.
Who is the persistent force behind bitcoin that elevate bitcoin from being a worthless piece of digital token to where it is today?
I can bet if I were to develop a much more powerful version of bitcoin and release it into the wild and just let the world work it out for me, it would die within a year.
But why is bitcoin different?
I am going to expect lots of dumb answers.
I am like so Lolz when I read the below and remember how I (as @AnonyMint) was telling everyone that Tor was compromised back in 2013 and everyone thought I was a kook.
no tor user has ever been compromised given that he was using an isolated OS (tails) up to date, and with all scripts off.
But you aren't sure.
Your nonsense has been refuted already upthread.
The devs have no control whatsoever dufus.
1 Read more about this here.
there will be constant vendettas with sides fighting creating confusion and collapsing price
there will be strong interest in a lot of people to fight this billionaire cartel that you talk about because they will have millions trapped in the blockchain
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