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Topic: Just-Dice.com : now with added CLAMs : Play or Invest - page 149. (Read 454769 times)

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
I've done the math.

What we have here is a Bernoulli distribution - only ones and zeros but it still has a mean and a variance.

The variance in such a distribution is the probability of an event happening times one minus the probability of that event happening divided by the number of times it has an opportunity to happen.

The probability of us, the investors, winning any one bet is 51 % so the variance is 0.51 * 0.49 or 0.2499 divided by the number of bets.

A Bernoulli distribution always describes a bell curve. The greater the variance the fatter the bell curve, but this one always peaks at 0.51.

Our profit is all the curve that is on the right side of 0.5 (the mean of a fair coin toss) and our loss is all the curve on the left side of 0.5.

What we WANT is a curve with no variance at all. A straight line. We take the bet, shave off 1 percent and give the 99 % back. They give it back to us and we shave 1 percent again and give it back etc etc. Every 72 times this happens, we are keeping half the original stake.

But in real life there is variance. We don't get a straight line, we get a bell curve.

You will notice that with 51 % probability of winning we are intrinsically slightly advantaged. That's the whole point.

When the whale makes one huge bet of amount N the variance on the one bet is 0.2499 and the standard deviation of that is the square root of the variance which is 0.4999. That is a big fat curve of mean 0.51 and standard deviation of 0.4999. The amount of the curve to the left of 0.5 (the one where we the investors lose the bet) is 49.2 % - the part were we win is 50.8 %.

That is NUTS. We're betting a huge amount on a coin toss. The chance we make a profit (the portion of the curve to the right of 0.5) is only about 51%.

Oh, but that's an advantage you say! Look - if we take that bet we are gamblers and the whole point of investing is to not be a gambler. I'm not betting a wad of Bitcoins on a coin toss.

Besides - watch this! I'll show you what a REAL advantage looks like!

Let's get the same N bet in 1,000 small bets of N / 1,000.

Suddenly the variance is 0.2499 / 1,000 -> 0.0002499 - and the standard deviation is 0.0158

The curve this time is still peaking at 0.51 but it is much narrower. It is much closer to that ideal line we want. The area to the left of 0.5 - the losing bets - is about 24 % of the curve. To the right - 76 %.

We profit 76 % of the time over 1,000 bets - not 50.8 % of the time like with 1 bet.

THAT'S being an investor, not a gambler.

Also - has anyone noticed that despite the 1 percent edge JD has never made a 1 % profit? It was about half that - before the current fiasco - now we know why.

Variance. Lets lower it by refusing big bets.

This has been mentioned to Dooglus many times, his answer he always gives if you want less exposure then decrease your investment.  There will be no change.  Either accept the conditions or divest.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
I've done the math.

What we have here is a Bernoulli distribution - only ones and zeros but it still has a mean and a variance.

The variance in such a distribution is the probability of an event happening times one minus the probability of that event happening divided by the number of times it has an opportunity to happen.

The probability of us, the investors, winning any one bet is 51 % so the variance is 0.51 * 0.49 or 0.2499 divided by the number of bets.

A Bernoulli distribution always describes a bell curve. The greater the variance the fatter the bell curve, but this one always peaks at 0.51.

Our profit is all the curve that is on the right side of 0.5 (the mean of a fair coin toss) and our loss is all the curve on the left side of 0.5.

What we WANT is a curve with no variance at all. A straight line. We take the bet, shave off 1 percent and give the 99 % back. They give it back to us and we shave 1 percent again and give it back etc etc. Every 72 times this happens, we are keeping half the original stake.

But in real life there is variance. We don't get a straight line, we get a bell curve.

You will notice that with 51 % probability of winning we are intrinsically slightly advantaged. That's the whole point.

When the whale makes one huge bet of amount N the variance on the one bet is 0.2499 and the standard deviation of that is the square root of the variance which is 0.4999. That is a big fat curve of mean 0.51 and standard deviation of 0.4999. The amount of the curve to the left of 0.5 (the one where we the investors lose the bet) is 49.2 % - the part were we win is 50.8 %.

That is NUTS. We're betting a huge amount on a coin toss. The chance we make a profit (the portion of the curve to the right of 0.5) is only about 51%.

Oh, but that's an advantage you say! Look - if we take that bet we are gamblers and the whole point of investing is to not be a gambler. I'm not betting a wad of Bitcoins on a coin toss.

Besides - watch this! I'll show you what a REAL advantage looks like!

Let's get the same N bet in 1,000 small bets of N / 1,000.

Suddenly the variance is 0.2499 / 1,000 -> 0.0002499 - and the standard deviation is 0.0158

The curve this time is still peaking at 0.51 but it is much narrower. It is much closer to that ideal line we want. The area to the left of 0.5 - the losing bets - is about 24 % of the curve. To the right - 76 %.

We profit 76 % of the time over 1,000 bets - not 50.8 % of the time like with 1 bet.

THAT'S being an investor, not a gambler.

Also - has anyone noticed that despite the 1 percent edge JD has never made a 1 % profit? It was about half that - before the current fiasco - now we know why.

Variance. Lets lower it by refusing big bets.
donator
Activity: 668
Merit: 500
Questions need to be seriously asked about whether something fishy is going on.  First time is happenstance, second time is coincidence, .....

What's this - the fifth or sixth time?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
I don't think that anything should be changed, though I'm not happy about being down so substantially either :/. The reality though is that these guys are lucky to be walking away with such large profits, and it is only a matter of time before they come back for another quick hit and donate it all back. These whale betters should actually be encouraged because in the long run they will lose, and right now we could use some big losers.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
Lower variance and lower potential profit mmmmkay.

No, the opposite. The lower the variance the more the house edge counts. More profit.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
Lower variance and lower potential profit mmmmkay.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
Change the house odds to 1.5%, none of the betters will leave and still better then SD.

There's no need to make it harder for the 0.0003 BTC type bettor - it's the 75 BTC bettor like Choad I just saw...

We should just enforce a max profit and a max bet.

The variance on a Bernoulli distribution with a win prob of 0.5 (close enough) is 0.25 / the number of bets.

We want the variance to be small, therefore a lot of 0.0004 type bets. We take little nip out of each one.

It's not the edge it’s the variance and with a lower edge you must have a low variance and that means lots of little bets and not a few big ones.

I really hope Doog reads this. It's math, there's no room for argument. We need a max bet and a max profit  - I recommend 1 / 1,000 capital - that still allows a 36 BTC bet right now - that’s 4 grand.
I don't think Doog will change anything.  

He had better or sharps will continue to butt rape JD and it will continue to lose money and investors will start to flee like rats from a sinking ship.

It's about the variance, Doog!
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Change the house odds to 1.5%, none of the betters will leave and still better then SD.

There's no need to make it harder for the 0.0003 BTC type bettor - it's the 75 BTC bettor like Choad I just saw...

We should just enforce a max profit and a max bet.

The variance on a Bernoulli distribution with a win prob of 0.5 (close enough) is 0.25 / the number of bets.

We want the variance to be small, therefore a lot of 0.0004 type bets. We take little nip out of each one.

It's not the edge it’s the variance and with a lower edge you must have a low variance and that means lots of little bets and not a few big ones.

I really hope Doog reads this. It's math, there's no room for argument. We need a max bet and a max profit  - I recommend 1 / 1,000 capital - that still allows a 36 BTC bet right now - that’s 4 grand.
I don't think Doog will change anything. 
jr. member
Activity: 59
Merit: 10
just open the JD and see the (profit) -159.84071618 Cry Down over 6000 BTC since last time a see it just a week ago...Crazy whale Shocked
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
Change the house odds to 1.5%, none of the betters will leave and still better then SD.

There's no need to make it harder for the 0.0003 BTC type bettor - it's the 75 BTC bettor like Chode I just saw...

We should just enforce a max profit and a max bet.

The variance on a Bernoulli distribution with a win prob of 0.5 (close enough) is 0.25 / the number of bets.

We want the variance to be small, therefore a lot of 0.0004 type bets. We take little nip out of each one.

It's not the edge it’s the variance and with a lower edge you must have a low variance and that means lots of little bets and not a few big ones.

I really hope Doog reads this. It's math, there's no room for argument. We need a max bet and a max profit  - I recommend 1 / 1,000 capital - that still allows a 36 BTC bet right now - that’s 4 grand.
hero member
Activity: 763
Merit: 500
Change the house odds to 1.5%, none of the betters will leave and still better then SD.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
Pulled my 7.5BTC 3 days ago when the site was up only 4,000 BTC, I came back the next day to see how much JD was up (2,000 BTC) and now today the site is negative -100 BTC.   Cool

We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.

 Huh

I somehow have invested in the only casino in the world that loses money...  Cry

Eventually the house edge will kick in.

The thing about the edge that’s important is that each bet gets a tiny little bite taken out of it - in this case REALLY tiny - and that adds up. The more the bets, the smaller the variance and the smaller the variance the more the house edge kicks in. With an edge as small as ours we must have a small variance. That means many small bets.

But we can get hurt by a few huge bets because the variance is large. The investor then becomes just another gambler and the whole point of being an investor is to not be a gambler. It is to be on the right side of the odds.

The math says we have to lower the max or raise the edge for big bets.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.
We are not being killed by huge martingale bettors, we are being killed by someone who bets 100 BTC on 49.5% 12 times and wins 11.
If it just happened one time, it would be easier to deal with.  It happens repeatedly.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
Pulled my 7.5BTC 3 days ago when the site was up only 4,000 BTC, I came back the next day to see how much JD was up (2,000 BTC) and now today the site is negative -100 BTC.   Cool

We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.

 Huh

I somehow have invested in the only casino in the world that loses money...  Cry

Eventually the house edge will kick in.

Actually I remember reading an article a long time ago that said the way to make $ at any table is to bet the max and quit, win or lose.

I actually wrote a simulation in QBASIC for that and it worked.

This is what's happening here.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
In addition to the max profit limit, limit the max bet to 1 / 2,000 of capital - that would be about 15 BTC right now. That's still about $2,000.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
Pulled my 7.5BTC 3 days ago when the site was up only 4,000 BTC, I came back the next day to see how much JD was up (2,000 BTC) and now today the site is negative -100 BTC.   Cool

We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.

 Huh

I somehow have invested in the only casino in the world that loses money...  Cry

Eventually the house edge will kick in.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
Pulled my 7.5BTC 3 days ago when the site was up only 4,000 BTC, I came back the next day to see how much JD was up (2,000 BTC) and now today the site is negative -100 BTC.   Cool

We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.

 Huh

I somehow have invested in the only casino in the world that loses money...  Cry
member
Activity: 71
Merit: 10
Pulled my 7.5BTC 3 days ago when the site was up only 4,000 BTC, I came back the next day to see how much JD was up (2,000 BTC) and now today the site is negative -100 BTC.   Cool

We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.

 Huh
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.
We are not being killed by huge martingale bettors, we are being killed by someone who bets 100 BTC on 49.5% 12 times and wins 11.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
We being JD investors. Something must be done about huge Martingale bettors. I recommend lower house limits on consistent doublers.
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