Topic: KanoPool kano.is lowest 0.9% fee 🐈 since 2014 - Worldwide - 2432 blocks - page 2066. (Read 5352086 times)

When I realized this, I moved away from CPPSRB... stated more simply, with CPPSRB, you will NEVER make more than 100%-fee over any time frame. With PPLNS, you can make more than 100% over a limited time frame. Put even more simply...

- Under PPLNS if the pool does well (luck wise) over any given time frame, you will also do well (payout wise). Also if the pool does poorly (luck wise) over any given time frame, you will do poorly (payout wise).

- Under CPPSRB, if the pool does well (luck wise) over any given time frame you will simply get paid shelved shares/back pay, but never more than 100%. If the pool does poorly (luck wise) over any given time frame, you will do poorly (payout wise) until the pool has better luck, then you might be "made whole" (in terms of the amt you are owed based on comparison to pure PPS). I believe that theorhetically if a CPPSRB pool has better luck than 100% over its lifetime, then the result of that good luck goes to the pool operator. That's how PPS works anyway.

On a long enough time frame or with enough hashrate (any technical issues notwithstanding), PPLNS (and really all payout calculations) will be expected to trend closer to 100% minus fee. This includes CPPSRB but it will only from approach from below 100%.

For an analogy, think of it like golf. Hitting a block at 100% expected difficulty is like shooting par. With CPPSRB you can shoot lower than par, but you will never be rewarded for it. If you shoot higher than par, you are penalized for it. With PPS you will always be rewarded at par-level no matter what you shoot. With most other payout calculations, you are rewarded for shooting lower than par and penalized for shooting higher than par.

Sorry for getting so OT with this, but hopefully it helps anyone trying to figure out these payout calculations. The real question you must ask yourself is "Do I feel lucky?" ... Well, do ya, punk?

its a huge gamble tho.. you also have to account for the fees..
most people that rent hash put it on the solo pool if they want to gamble, or a pps pool for a sure profit.

Thanks, that helps a lot. I'll have to experiment a bit and see if its worth it, I suspect if you can get the hash for .0095 to .0098 and the poll is at least around 100% luck during that time then yes.

BBBBLLLOOOOCCCKKKK!!!! AND CONFIRMED

An update from me on the Empty Blocks issue:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11681429

That's how it is with PPLNS too. If the pool is lucky you get a high payout, if the pool is unlucky at the time then you get a low payout.

Since you are probably paying more than the rented mining is expected to generate on average, you have a less than 50% chance to make a profit.


What you describe is the proportional reward system (except that those don't use shifts). It is vulnerable to pool hopping, where pool hoppers can rip off the other miners in the pool. Very few pools use proportional anymore (mostly alt coin pools). Ghash uses PPLNS.

PPLNS means Pay Per Last N Shares. A specific amount of work gets paid each time. The point is to not be vulnerable to pool hopping by making it impossible to predict future payouts.

You still get high payouts when the pool is lucky of course. The same work can get paid multiple times with PPLNS.

Well on the maths side - I'll compare them so it may make a little sense

A PPS pool (and when I say PPS I do ONLY mean a true PPS) pays you a fixed amount (don't forget to remove the fee).
So certainly with renting and pointing it at a PPS pool, you must be paying less for renting, than the PPS pool's stated payout.
Simple to compare the cost vs the payout and you clearly win or lose based on that.

--

A PPLNS pool will have an average expected reward (here it's 98.7% PPS)
Pool luck history will show some other value (close to or distant from that)
I have related numbers on the Blocks page on the web site.

But PPLNS is based on block finding (i.e. it reflects what you are actually doing)
When the pool does something good for bitcoin, we all get a reward.
If the pool doesn't find a block, we don't get a reward.
Thus it is the luck of block finding that determines your reward.
You can't guess that in advance and be guaranteed to positively affect your reward, no matter what anyone tells you.
So the simple answer on any such pool (which also includes slush) - it's luck that decides if your rental will make more or less than PPS.

However, from a statistical point of view ...
The longer you rent, the lower your expected variance will be.
This means you should expected to push closer to the expected reward (but still would be expected to be above or below it)

The shorter you rent, the higher your expected variance will be.
This means you could vary much further from the expected reward (positive or negative)

--

Aside: ignore CPPSRB - that's even worse than PPS
It has an upper limit below 100% PPS ... but that's the absolute limit ... what you get can be anywhere from that or lower (never above)
... and the only pool using it spends a LOT of time working on stale work and also gives you bad work (empty blocks) every block change even though >90% of those empty blocks are slower than good work here.

I rent hash all the time on this pool. If you want to get an idea of the effect it is going to have this is the method I use for a "ball park". Log in and go to the reward page. There you will see the previous blocks, look at the last block and make note of the N Range, currently 279hr 48m 34s and the pool avg currently 1.06PHs.  Both of those are about to change significantly because melancon came back with quite a bit of power but none the less, this is a ball park. When the pool has a stable hash rate this is much more accurate. Anyway, shifts run about 45 minutes, so based on the last block there are about 372 shifts that were counted for the payout. Copy the table from the shifts page and paste into excel and delete the lower shifts to bring it to 372 columns (next block is going to be more, but hey this is a ball park). Do a find and replace on THs with nothing to get rid of the THs in the shift column and then trow an average function below it ( F ).

Now fuck around. You can get an idea of how renting hash in a burst or over long term is going to change your average that is going to be counted on the next block.  I prefer to do long steady rentals because of the pool size. But it is all luck.

In short I am not a pro and I am a bit inebriated. When I did my first rental here months ago I hit hard and the results were not what I expected. But yes, renting here does work and it does on every pool, it just works a bit different depending on the pool.

Cheers!

Just curious, does it make sense to rent hash on a PPLNS pool? I know you get paid for every share as long as its under 500%, but your getting paid based on 100% luck which is currently .0101, I think. That said you would have to rent the hash at lower then that and probably by a few points like .0098 or lower for this to be profitable. Does that make sense?

I've rented hash many times and pointed to Slush because of their reward system and if I think a block will break at 87-90% CDF, again just a guess then rent about a hour before that time and you would be paid at your scored hash rate when it hits. Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. Guess it's like rolling the dice at that point. I understand that scenario very well, but not sure I get the impact of renting on a PPLNS share.

I think Ghash pays for the shifts you contribute shares for a particular block, so if you rent and contribute to all shifts in a protocolar block and that block is under better then 100% luck, and your paying below .0101 for the hash, then you make coin, again my simple interpretation of the way it would work.

Feel free to comments if you have done this and how it would work on a PPLNS system.

Thanks,

Thank You.. Even though I am new to your pool I cant express enough how thankful I am that you have taken the time to initiate and still take the time to maintain this pool.

If I sounded like I was complaining.. I did not mean to. I am more like Sheldon on BBT. I just say whatever is on my mind and cant understand why your not in my head hearing exactly what I meant to say rather than how I said it, And I appreciate yours as well as everyone's advice... (well maybe not everyone's pantie boy)

I am still pointing to this pool and hope to do so for the foreseeable future. I realize the potential otherwise I would not have started down this path..

Payout 361844 sent
ec55e46b9936d48ea668106a9c519879f996bc2c5225b3b8e96a62a8a03e7f5a
and confirmed

At 1351 TH, 100% expected time is about 1.82 days.

Yea I knew it was going to be less but it was still a shock...

so now I wait another 4 days until the next one.. lol

I will have to get back to you on the whole pantie thing...

Welp...it's been explained well by 2 others, and if you'll remember, I also relayed to you that your first few payouts weren't going to be up to par /w what you felt they should be...hang in there. Kano put it best by saying 'stop' mining now and you'll still get paid (until your shares are used up,  basically).

Ya gotta trust someone, sometime. Be cool.

Now...about those red pantie pics...send 'em out, we need proof.

It shows how many shares you submitted (Your N Diff) in the reward time (N Range = 279hr 48m 34s) and converts that to a hash rate.
If you were mining for 1/3 of the reward time, it will show 1/3 of your full hash rate.

One way to understand PPLNS, if the explanations don't make any sense, is to stop mining on kano.is now and see what happens.
Over the next 500% Diff submitted to the pool (~280hrs at the moment), any blocks we find, you will continue to get paid after you stop mining.
If we find more than 4 blocks, your total reward should be better than PPS, if we find less than 4 blocks, your total reward will be worse than PPS.

If you started mining 3 weeks ago, your reward by now would have you wondering why you ever mined anywhere else
But that would also be a misunderstanding of Luck and the 5N (500%) PPLNS.

As I said before,

you could have listened.. lol..

for one you just got here, so you havent filled up your shares yet..
2nd it was a long block, over 200%, that means you get half what you would have made if the block was 100% or a quarter if it was 50%..


its ok, just relax.. when we get blocks that are less then 100% we make more then a pps pool.. of course it goes both ways and you make less if it goes above 100%.

so far tho the avg is on our side.. currently the last 10 blocks is over 135%..

yea I am glad a block was found.. but uh I earned less in almost 5 days than I would have gotten in 1 day.. not sure what I could have done differently

I pointed all my gear to the pool and it shows almost 8TH on the ckpool stats hash rate

but in my rewards N/AVG it only shows 2.8TH

My miners never went down that I am aware of so what did I do wrong here

Think its time to go have a BudLight Now

woot, now lets hope for a few green ones to go with it.

i just switched my 2 s3s back to the solo pool too. so the payout should be good.

Well you are looking at days, not Diff %, and days is dependent upon pool hash rate.
Lower hash rate expects an average longer times between payouts, but an average higher amount per payout.

Of course a 200% block means (as I said before) you'll get half the average expected number of payouts vs always finding a 100% block.

Blocks are expected on average, to be longer than 200% Diff, 13.5% of the time - i.e. a bit more than 1 in 7 blocks is expected to be over 200% Diff

but even for 300%:

Blocks are expected on average, to be longer than 300% Diff, 5% of the time - i.e. a bit more than 1 in 20 blocks is expected to be over 300% Diff

... and those figures are the same on every pool (or worse if the pool has on going ignored problems ... like Eligius)

... AND we just got a block (just as I was about to click on post)