Topic: KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June - page 15. (Read 91301 times)
Difficulty has gone from 11 to 12 to 15 in just a week. Almost 50% increase.
Hosting with some quick and dirty math is 300-400Euro per unit, per month.
What did you base this assumption on. Just asking, because colocation of a "normal" server at e.g. Pionen datacenter in Sweden is priced about 70+ Euro a month.
If the difficulty continue to rise - and that's the main goal of KNCMiner - there won't be any spare 50$ to shed on hosting
What I'm not seeing any of you address when you harp on the difficulty rising is the FACT that these devices are the first wave of machines that are DESIGNED to handle that increase. NRE is expensive, once it's recovered the cost of manufacture is not that great. This isn't an all or nothing game. Yeah, it just got more complicated and will have to get more professional just to cope, but that's the price of beginning to go mainstream. If bitcoin is to succeed in the long term, these are things that are GOING to happen. Those that manage to get in on the beginning are going to make a mint, for a minute. That doesn't mean that all profits will thereafter immediately vanish.
Hosting with some quick and dirty math is 300-400Euro per unit, per month.
What did you base this assumption on. Just asking, because colocation of a "normal" server at e.g. Pionen datacenter in Sweden is priced about 70+ Euro a month.
If the difficulty continue to rise - and that's the main goal of KNCMiner - there won't be any spare 50$ to shed on hosting
Hosting with some quick and dirty math is 300-400Euro per unit, per month.
What did you base this assumption on. Just asking, because colocation of a "normal" server at e.g. Pionen datacenter in Sweden is priced about 70+ Euro a month.
Hosting with some quick and dirty math is 300-400Euro per unit, per month.
Did anyone think about KNCMiner offering to host ASICs for you? What I mean it sounds like a very bad business judgment to me. After all they themselves create the production of unlimited number of powerful ASICs and after little time running a ASIC will only be profitable with low electricity cost and management fees.
But they talk about Tier 3 datacenters and such. So they gonna pursue this endeavor just to find out later that running ASICs is barely profitable and whoever runs it does it at home.
Initially I thought it was to avoid VAT, but now it turns out you pay VAT anyway if you leave the device with them. Yet they're a small company and cannot spread the energy across many different things.
But they talk about Tier 3 datacenters and such. So they gonna pursue this endeavor just to find out later that running ASICs is barely profitable and whoever runs it does it at home.
Initially I thought it was to avoid VAT, but now it turns out you pay VAT anyway if you leave the device with them. Yet they're a small company and cannot spread the energy across many different things.
Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Pre-orders are like getting free loans. You won't get that anywhere but in bitcoin madness industry.
Yeah. It's also true that this is a tricky situation. Let's be clear, if you had the skills to quickly produce Bitcoin ASICs, from a business perspective you have two choices:
a) Risking your own money, to mine the hell out of your hardware.
b) Using your customers money for the development, transferring all the risk to them, making a profit on the hardware.
Risking your own money to sell money-printing machines at a price that allows ROI in 30 days or less seems an unwise choice. What's the logic in it? If you achieve that, you mine yourself because your profits will be much higher, and you took the risk. Only way you are giving such a "good deal" to your customers is because you risked their money from the very beginning, transferring to them all the risks regarding delays, difficulty spikes and Bitcoin exchange rate. And this is why ASICs are a totally different game compared to GPUs of FPGAs, we are approaching uncharted territory, and I'm afraid that rather sooner than later big players will step in to create their own ass-kicking technology for their own minin operations.
ASICs indeed open a very real possibility of de facto centralization of the network. This is why Litecoin and other scrypt based coins, which are supposed to be "ASIC resistant", were created. ASIC really create a new scenario with a lot of negative incentives.
I think the next move of ASIC designers should be to stick to ASICs and not do complete miners, only distribute open source specs for boards, firmware, whatnot. Distributing only the chips allows for a bigger spread of the risk to numerous smaller entities and better network security overall.
Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Pre-orders are like getting free loans. You won't get that anywhere but in bitcoin madness industry.
Yeah. It's also true that this is a tricky situation. Let's be clear, if you had the skills to quickly produce Bitcoin ASICs, from a business perspective you have two choices:
a) Risking your own money, to mine the hell out of your hardware.
b) Using your customers money for the development, transferring all the risk to them, making a profit on the hardware.
Risking your own money to sell money-printing machines at a price that allows ROI in 30 days or less seems an unwise choice. What's the logic in it? If you achieve that, you mine yourself because your profits will be much higher, and you took the risk. Only way you are giving such a "good deal" to your customers is because you risked their money from the very beginning, transferring to them all the risks regarding delays, difficulty spikes and Bitcoin exchange rate. And this is why ASICs are a totally different game compared to GPUs of FPGAs, we are approaching uncharted territory, and I'm afraid that rather sooner than later big players will step in to create their own ass-kicking technology for their own minin operations.
ASICs indeed open a very real possibility of de facto centralization of the network. This is why Litecoin and other scrypt based coins, which are supposed to be "ASIC resistant", were created. ASIC really create a new scenario with a lot of negative incentives.
FWIW they said they aren't taking a salary right now and somewhere someone said they can't take profits until they deliver in some Swedish law..
I guess that is kinda hurt money type stuff
I guess that is kinda hurt money type stuff
Of course there's no way to prove it, but selling a few queue positions, of which KnC was more than happy to facilitate, would hurt them not as much.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?pli=1
Question 26: They were asked about a pool and had to have it explained.
Also, where is Q. 27?
Sam claimed that he and Andreas have been mining, assumed as a team, prior to starting KnC. Was it solo mining or on a pool? And if pool, which one?
It had been asked and answered, they asked the group if we agreed which we did with no protests.
I am actually willing to go in debt for one of their machines, but not on a pre-order. Once they are actually delivering and I can properly assess the risk. By then there may be other players, but other than a couple of people, particularly terrahash and steamboat, who are building Klondike/avalon boards, I don't see anyone actually delivering anything impressive in that time frame. BFL is still dicking around with a couple hundred 5 GH/s rigs, nearly two months after they finally "started delivering", ASICMiner is too expensive right now, and Avalon is amateurish. Impressive amateurs to be sure, but not really ready for the big time. I'm hoping these guys can pull it off.
+1. Early adopters are taking a punt I cannot afford to take, but I wish you all the best of luck.....
And as Bitcoinorama has pointed out, there is no way of knowing if somebody is quietly developing ASIC bitcoin miners in the dark. Despite some "wow that's magic" thinking that seems to follow anything technical, 28nm is not that technically impressive, just expensive. I lived and am about to go bach to Boise, Idaho and I could point you to two fabs there that are fully capable of it. There are a couple others there that probably could do it. Micron and Zilog for damn sure. And that's just one tech center. Silicon valley hasn't even popped their head up on this yet, nor New Jersey. That's just in the US. I'm sure you EU guys could point out another bunch of fabricators that are capable of it. The initial duopoly that currently exists is a bonanza for those involved. Unfortunately for them, the market will not allow that to continue. ASICS or possibly even something better will come out to compete. I've been in the tech game to some degree since I was a little kid, and the one thing that has been constant is that today's "unsurpassed" new gadget will be obsolete by the time it gets to market.
C'mon Enterpoint, you know it makes sense......
I lived in communist Yugoslavia in 1982. we couldn't see a PC on TV let alone have it 
Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Pre-orders are like getting free loans. You won't get that anywhere but in bitcoin madness industry.
You shoulda seen IBM circa 1979.
A gold rush, regardless of whether it's the real thing, is nothing new.
All I've seen in 1979 were my toys
my toy in 1979
I didn't get my first PC til about 82...
Been playin' with computers since I was a little kid. I also had a TRS-80 model 2 in 79, but the Altair was more fun.
Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Pre-orders are like getting free loans. You won't get that anywhere but in bitcoin madness industry.
You shoulda seen IBM circa 1979.
A gold rush, regardless of whether it's the real thing, is nothing new.
All I've seen in 1979 were my toys
What engineering talent BFL had/has? Is it comparable to Orsoc's?
How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?
Apparently BFL are rank amateurs by comparison. Orsoc is about as professional as it comes for ASIC design. No way are they going to have the kind of power and heat problems BFL had. They know the pitfalls of ASIC design well, no doubt. They have several designers who are ASIC specialists and have worked as Orsoc for years now. How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?
Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Pre-orders are like getting free loans. You won't get that anywhere but in bitcoin madness industry.
You shoulda seen IBM circa 1979.
A gold rush, regardless of whether it's the real thing, is nothing new.
Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.
You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.
Pre-orders are like getting free loans. You won't get that anywhere but in bitcoin madness industry.
Wise words.
I'm climbing down off my high horse now and wishing you guys all the best. My wife bought me a Tee shirt that reads "to save time let's just assume that I'm right" so if you'd like to save time......
I'm still very much rooting for the success of this project. I've just got cautious in my old age.
Anyway it was good sparring with you. Politics and religion next?
G'night all
Since I got delayed AGAIN, I have to say it's too bad you're off to bed.
I'm up for politics and religion (evil leering grin)
Ah well, guess I'll get that shot in a couple of weeks.
Related to the actual thread, I've actually thought your worthy opponent has taken the middle road all the way through this thread. As have I.
I am actually willing to go in debt for one of their machines, but not on a pre-order. Once they are actually delivering and I can properly assess the risk. By then there may be other players, but other than a couple of people, particularly terrahash and steamboat, who are building Klondike/avalon boards, I don't see anyone actually delivering anything impressive in that time frame. BFL is still dicking around with a couple hundred 5 GH/s rigs, nearly two months after they finally "started delivering", ASICMiner is too expensive right now, and Avalon is amateurish. Impressive amateurs to be sure, but not really ready for the big time. I'm hoping these guys can pull it off.
And as Bitcoinorama has pointed out, there is no way of knowing if somebody is quietly developing ASIC bitcoin miners in the dark. Despite some "wow that's magic" thinking that seems to follow anything technical, 28nm is not that technically impressive, just expensive. I lived and am about to go bach to Boise, Idaho and I could point you to two fabs there that are fully capable of it. There are a couple others there that probably could do it. Micron and Zilog for damn sure. And that's just one tech center. Silicon valley hasn't even popped their head up on this yet, nor New Jersey. That's just in the US. I'm sure you EU guys could point out another bunch of fabricators that are capable of it. The initial duopoly that currently exists is a bonanza for those involved. Unfortunately for them, the market will not allow that to continue. ASICS or possibly even something better will come out to compete. I've been in the tech game to some degree since I was a little kid, and the one thing that has been constant is that today's "unsurpassed" new gadget will be obsolete by the time it gets to market.
At present, KNC looks to be the best game in town. By August, we should all know for sure.
As somebody else posted not long ago: Isn't life about the strangest thing you've ever done?
FWIW they said they aren't taking a salary right now and somewhere someone said they can't take profits until they deliver in some Swedish law..
I guess that is kinda hurt money type stuff
I guess that is kinda hurt money type stuff
Of course there's no way to prove it, but selling a few queue positions, of which KnC was more than happy to facilitate, would hurt them not as much.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?pli=1
Question 26: They were asked about a pool and had to have it explained.
Also, where is Q. 27?
Sam claimed that he and Andreas have been mining, assumed as a team, prior to starting KnC. Was it solo mining or on a pool? And if pool, which one?
they cleared up that you can get refunds on the Q&A so that was the biggest hurdle I wanted to hear.. we all know there is some risk or the prices would be as high as ASICminer
It boils down to if you want to take a shot on a horse and if there are any horse you feel you can gamble with. So far these guys are the only ones to give a shot with for me for a big ROI
I have some DIY too but I find it funny that everyone acts like DIY will be turnkey instamatic with no problems yet need 1000 questions on these guys. I guess everyone just wants dirt cheap option and they feel wonderful
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