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Topic: KnCMiner selling raw chips for $.15 / GH - page 3. (Read 5744 times)

hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
CCNA: There i fixed the internet.
August 18, 2014, 12:38:46 PM
#27
BGA - fun to solder at home.
No open source board design.
No docs.

What happens if you put them in power chain? 13 chips should feed nicely from 12V PSU - I calculated 1877A of current @ 0.87V - can they handle this?
So far I saw only 1 successful design with high current chip - MrTeal's HF board!

I also got a reply saying do a go public shortly.

If we go by their November boards with 8 DCDC modules @ 40A

That's [email protected] or around 300W. Per board of one chip, that's only 25-50% of the power density of MrTeal's Hoppin Habs. But if it's worth doing, overdo it by 50+% for them overclocking people

So say [email protected] or about 430W
For 180 GH, unless you don't pay electricity, don't expect any ROI.
I hope they can run at something near 1W/GH or they are useless for most of us.
The point is what hashrate will we have @ 1W/GH


True. Only time will tell.

but i can for sure say that the Line Item cost for the VRM can be significantly reduced. A quick look on digikey yielded these numbers:

the VRM used on Jupiter boards is MDT040A0X3-SRPHZ
with
  • a cost @QTY1 of 31.55+shipping
  • an extrapolated effiency of between 82-85% at maximum load of 40A

A better system can be yielded by replacing the 8 Ericsson modules with:
  • 12-16 IR3550 (2 IR3550 to replace each module, or 3 IR3550 to replace 2 modules)
  • 2 UCD9248 to monitor and control each individual phase/rail
  • supporting electronics: R,C,L

This would yield a system both lower in parts cost and Greater system effeciency, in the neighborhood of 87-92% efficient, thus lowering energy consumption, lowering the ripple currents & voltages to the asic(will help reduce HW errors, and Less stress on the components) and allowing for some great overclocking capabilities if the dies are able to (as was the case for the HF ASIC which was just starved for power until 'Teal got hold of it and fed it.)


this would reduce the BOM for the VRM from ~ 250USD to about 140USD
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
August 18, 2014, 11:42:12 AM
#26
BGA - fun to solder at home.
No open source board design.
No docs.

What happens if you put them in power chain? 13 chips should feed nicely from 12V PSU - I calculated 1877A of current @ 0.87V - can they handle this?
So far I saw only 1 successful design with high current chip - MrTeal's HF board!

I also got a reply saying do a go public shortly.

If we go by their November boards with 8 DCDC modules @ 40A

That's [email protected] or around 300W. Per board of one chip, that's only 25-50% of the power density of MrTeal's Hoppin Habs. But if it's worth doing, overdo it by 50+% for them overclocking people

So say [email protected] or about 430W
For 180 GH, unless you don't pay electricity, don't expect any ROI.
I hope they can run at something near 1W/GH or they are useless for most of us.
The point is what hashrate will we have @ 1W/GH
sr. member
Activity: 272
Merit: 250
August 18, 2014, 11:34:02 AM
#25
I meant to say it should be possible to chain them like BFY chips - the only concern is - could the chips handle that much current?
The idea is to keep the BOM as low as possible and not blow things up.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
CCNA: There i fixed the internet.
August 18, 2014, 11:00:43 AM
#24
BGA - fun to solder at home.
No open source board design.
No docs.

What happens if you put them in power chain? 13 chips should feed nicely from 12V PSU - I calculated 1877A of current @ 0.87V - can they handle this?
So far I saw only 1 successful design with high current chip - MrTeal's HF board!

I also got a reply saying do a go public shortly.

If we go by their November boards with 8 DCDC modules @ 40A

That's [email protected] or around 300W. Per board of one chip, that's only 25-50% of the power density of MrTeal's Hoppin Habs. But if it's worth doing, overdo it by 50+% for them overclocking people

So say [email protected] or about 430W
sr. member
Activity: 272
Merit: 250
August 18, 2014, 10:45:22 AM
#23
BGA - fun to solder at home.
No open source board design.
No docs.

What happens if you put them in power chain? 13 chips should feed nicely from 12V PSU - I calculated 1877A of current @ 0.87V - can they handle this?
So far I saw only 1 successful design with high current chip - MrTeal's HF board!
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
August 18, 2014, 10:43:47 AM
#22
I also got an email saying docs would be uploaded.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
August 18, 2014, 10:39:30 AM
#21
I did the same thing asking of only documentation on pinout and protocol

And received an almost word for word reply.

They replied to me that "more information will become available from the website later today"

Maybe they got tired of getting emails asking for the datasheets.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
CCNA: There i fixed the internet.
August 18, 2014, 09:54:39 AM
#20
I did the same thing asking of only documentation on pinout and protocol

And received an almost word for word reply.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
August 18, 2014, 05:04:03 AM
#19
I was interested too, but it looks like you can't even have 1 sample and datasheet or anything to test a design before ordering.
Does anyone know of the typical power draw of the chips?
I've read somewhere that they aren't that efficient, so if we need downclocking them to half their hashrate to have 1W/GH, we are effectively paying 0.3$/GH
Not that interesting compared to other one where you get the datasheet and everyhting you need before ordering the chips.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 501
Miner Setup And Reviews. WASP Rep.
August 18, 2014, 04:31:05 AM
#18
got a reply back from them about getting documentation:

Quote
Hi,

The documentations will be sent with the chips and not before purchase.
Unfortunately we do not sell a sample of 1 or 2 chips. We sell these chips in sets of 200.

Best regards 
Med vänlig hälsning

Natalie Forslund

Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253
20

Is that documentation for the chip or documentation for a complete pcb?
full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
August 18, 2014, 02:13:03 AM
#17
got a reply back from them about getting documentation:

Quote
Hi,

The documentations will be sent with the chips and not before purchase.
Unfortunately we do not sell a sample of 1 or 2 chips. We sell these chips in sets of 200.

Best regards 
Med vänlig hälsning

Natalie Forslund

Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253
20
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 501
Miner Setup And Reviews. WASP Rep.
August 18, 2014, 01:31:06 AM
#16
.... Why would you buy this chip anyway, the maximum you could get out of it is probably 1W/GH.

Very cheap cost for chip. The issue is the cost required for the manufacturing if the boards. To make purchasing the chips and manufacturing them onto boards viable it would need to be done immediately and at the cheapest possible manufacturing price. You would also need cheap power.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
August 18, 2014, 12:15:22 AM
#15
.... Why would you buy this chip anyway, the maximum you could get out of it is probably 1W/GH.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
August 17, 2014, 10:00:22 PM
#14
It will be better to inform the buyers on the PCB manufacturer that made their original boards, whit that manufacturer we could be 100% that will get working board, otherwise, even whit the gerber files from KnN its still a huge risk to order boards just to find out that there not mining.

The gerber files from HashFast Evo boards are free from months and yet by this point only peppermining manage the make a working board for the GoldenNonce 700Gh Chip.

And /skfx67]BitCrane.
Unless they have a different board in the production versions than is shown on their website, the Bitcrane board is exactly the same as the Evo board, with a Bitcrane logo added to the silkscreen layer.

That being said, while KnC hasn't gotten back to me with information on the chips yet, I don't see why they should be a challenge to design for. They should certainly be easier to work with than the HF chips in terms of board layout.

There are differents!  Bitcrane paid Dogie toll of sending miner.

Another one for the ignore list... Its reference with minor tweaks.
newbie
Activity: 36
Merit: 0
August 17, 2014, 09:53:48 PM
#13
It will be better to inform the buyers on the PCB manufacturer that made their original boards, whit that manufacturer we could be 100% that will get working board, otherwise, even whit the gerber files from KnN its still a huge risk to order boards just to find out that there not mining.

The gerber files from HashFast Evo boards are free from months and yet by this point only peppermining manage the make a working board for the GoldenNonce 700Gh Chip.

And /skfx67]BitCrane.
Unless they have a different board in the production versions than is shown on their website, the Bitcrane board is exactly the same as the Evo board, with a Bitcrane logo added to the silkscreen layer.

That being said, while KnC hasn't gotten back to me with information on the chips yet, I don't see why they should be a challenge to design for. They should certainly be easier to work with than the HF chips in terms of board layout.

There are differents!  Bitcrane paid Dogie toll of sending miner.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
August 17, 2014, 09:49:53 PM
#12
It will be better to inform the buyers on the PCB manufacturer that made their original boards, whit that manufacturer we could be 100% that will get working board, otherwise, even whit the gerber files from KnN its still a huge risk to order boards just to find out that there not mining.

The gerber files from HashFast Evo boards are free from months and yet by this point only peppermining manage the make a working board for the GoldenNonce 700Gh Chip.

And BitCrane.
Unless they have a different board in the production versions than is shown on their website, the Bitcrane board is exactly the same as the Evo board, with a Bitcrane logo added to the silkscreen layer.

That being said, while KnC hasn't gotten back to me with information on the chips yet, I don't see why they should be a challenge to design for. They should certainly be easier to work with than the HF chips in terms of board layout.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
August 17, 2014, 05:22:47 PM
#11
No. You going to disagree with what I said or just generally disagree.

Low yield rate has nothing to do with the difficulty to "design for".  You design for a fully functional chip, and in the event that a chip bins less than A grade, it's not an issue.

High BGA count really doesn't mean anything.  You either construct the component on your own, or use a pre-existing model.  This process is only time intensive and really does not reflect on "difficult to design for".  Otherwise, the bulk of the BGA pads are for Vdd/Vcc and ground, all of which are just tied to their respective plane(s).  The few IO pins that do exist can be adequately routed through a multi-layer PCB.

Multiphase DC/DC regulation isn't rocket science.  In fact, most MP controller documentation makes recommendations as to what MOSFETs are ideal as well as the desired pad configuration.  Further, KnC didn't even use their own implementation of a multiphase design.  They used complete design solutions from GE and Ericsson.

I agree that there are some challenges in designing a PCB for these chips, but the design challenges don't have much to do with what you've stated, if at all.

My auto refresher destroyed my reply to this 3x, so I've given up typing it out. But yeah, I'll take a QFN64 chip over a 2800 ball BGA chip any day.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
cryptoshark
August 17, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
#10
is it large cost to resolder/replace broken chips at kncminer boards?

maybe this is a way to use thoose chips...

or create 1:1 clone of knc boards

is there a chance they will give enough information to create a clone?

thanks
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
August 17, 2014, 04:22:02 PM
#9
No. You going to disagree with what I said or just generally disagree.

Low yield rate has nothing to do with the difficulty to "design for".  You design for a fully functional chip, and in the event that a chip bins less than A grade, it's not an issue.

High BGA count really doesn't mean anything.  You either construct the component on your own, or use a pre-existing model.  This process is only time intensive and really does not reflect on "difficult to design for".  Otherwise, the bulk of the BGA pads are for Vdd/Vcc and ground, all of which are just tied to their respective plane(s).  The few IO pins that do exist can be adequately routed through a multi-layer PCB.

Multiphase DC/DC regulation isn't rocket science.  In fact, most MP controller documentation makes recommendations as to what MOSFETs are ideal as well as the desired pad configuration.  Further, KnC didn't even use their own implementation of a multiphase design.  They used complete design solutions from GE and Ericsson.

I agree that there are some challenges in designing a PCB for these chips, but the design challenges don't have much to do with what you've stated, if at all.

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
August 17, 2014, 03:26:46 PM
#8
Low yield rate, BGA package with high ball count, difficult DC/DC.

Did you just make this stuff up?   You should probably stick to Mechanics.

No. You going to disagree with what I said or just generally disagree.
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