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Topic: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement - page 247. (Read 452180 times)

hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on.

Yeah...

                       shares           
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LabRatMining   5,071   18whVGfLcTnXva7rFGqwr6DkW1RzS3zJb1
LabRatMining   1,563   1PRzbLxMKSfRf1ZLKYDz6pPuRfd2fpDA2g
LabRatMining   1,300   1ECfbpmtVCtH16yF3m3uhwjX9JrjyQazoh
LabRatMining   4,466   1EGiTu5sz89jjvcoy2FdQNpuks3sPTNn8q
LabRatMining   3,302   147a4NvXCKVoN3mJPCjbTQpbvg2MuZW8S6
LabRatMining   1,669   1FscNBYzd5CqDzUVQ9YapLQNtLbswkM4NL

This guys are small players...right ? Please...
And i didn't take the Sub-thousand shares guys...

For example 5071 shares at 0.15BTC = ~ $ 104 209

Maybee just some kids...maybee
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
The amount of unquantifiable (and avoidable) risk in this security makes it a total gamble; there is a complete lack of rigorous structure you expect in the non-bitcoin investment world. If all bitcoin securities look like this, Bitcoin investment will fail to obtain real traction.
The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on. They, like you, can see the risk of putting money into amateur hands. So they move elsewhere.

FWIW, and on a slightly unrelated note, the reason I mine and don't play the exchanges is primarily ideological.

Mining provides crucial network infrastructure, and the ASIC boom provides resistance against attack, and participants are duly rewarded for their contribution in this regard. Playing the exchanges, however, is an activity that, whilst profitable, does not add value to the bitcoin economy itself. If trading is used to make profit in fiat then it is effectively bleeding money from the bitcoin ecosystem for the gain of the individual. For those reasons I mine instead of a playing the FX game.

As I say, unrelated, but just a thought on the subject...
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 252
... epoch's post

well said, thanks - don't think I can add to that. Like you said, this is part of the evolution of bitcoin - and will at least be a learning experience for all, and for some they will make a good amount of money.
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
The amount of unquantifiable (and avoidable) risk in this security makes it a total gamble; there is a complete lack of rigorous structure you expect in the non-bitcoin investment world. If all bitcoin securities look like this, Bitcoin investment will fail to obtain real traction.
This is a good observation.

LRM, but as well with the larger consumer/economic aspects of bitcoin in general, are 'amateur hour'. I don't say this out of spite, or as an insult. It is simply the way it is.

The bitcoin environment has been like this for years, with little movement forward to add much needed legitimacy to bitcoin's financial/economic/investment infrastructure. The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on. They, like you, can see the risk of putting money into amateur hands. So they move elsewhere.

The tragedy is, of course, that this is completely avoidable if the operators got their act together and started acting professionally and responsibly instead of like 17 year-old basement dwellers with delusions of grandeur. (no offense to 17 year-old basement dwellers intended)

People who either don't care about risk, are overly naive, or don't fully understand the risks, pat each other on the back and shovel money into endeavours such as this. Sure, they may get lucky, turn a profit, and come out ahead.

Or they may not. But that isn't the point, is it? That isn't *your* point. The point, as you have realized, is that there are many 'amateur hour' operations around that are asking for investment capital. But shine the light of reason on them, and they fall apart. No true investor would touch something with a wishy-washy 'contract', poor transparency, and 'promises' by anonymous internet personas. This is not what 'professionalism' is; it is 'amateur hour'. This is speculation at best, not 'investment'.

I've asked Lab_Rat various questions early on that were important to me as a potential investor; he chose not to answer them; I did not invest. It was that simple. Did I lose out? Honestly, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I, wearing my 'serious investor' hat, didn't see what I was looking for here. So I chose to move on. No big deal. I wonder how many others have done the same.

You asked in closing whether we, as investors, should allow such ventures to exist. The truth is that they *will* exist; 'we' have little influence on that. There are too many 'kids' (by 'kids' I mean anyone, regardless of physical age, short on financial investing acumen but long on greed) playing with bitcoin right now.

We are all still learning the ropes, and simply by being involved will be a good educational (if not financial) experience. Personally I have nothing against this reality; I don't see it as a detriment to bitcoin. It is simply the way it is. Go with it and enjoy the ride, but go in with eyes wide open. Just like the 'ignore' button on the forum, if you don't like someone's investment offering, you can simply choose to ignore it.

Eventually, though perhaps slowly, bitcoin will mature and begin to attract different types of investors. For now, there's nothing wrong with kids playing in their sandbox; adults know where it is and how to stay out.
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 252
Valiant effort though! Let's keep this back on topic, I don't believe MPOE-PR offers any valuable criticism to this "Security" that is all.

To keep it on topic, MPOE added some very valuable criticism and brought up an important point that many are missing. Are vague contracts, even if they turn a profit and make money, harmful to Bitcoin as a whole?

The amount of unquantifiable (and avoidable) risk in this security makes it a total gamble; there is a complete lack of rigorous structure you expect in the non-bitcoin investment world. If all bitcoin securities look like this, Bitcoin investment will fail to obtain real traction.

The typical response is, "look how much money I made! LRM is great, how can anyone question it?" MPOE's point is, profit aside, should we as a community support things that would not be supported outside of bitcoin?

I don't fault LabRat at all, he had a strategy and pursued it -- successfully raised a lot of money for his company and is mining. He performed excellently since his company owns hardware assets, is generating revenue (from fees), all with minimal outlay and no equity dilution! It is brilliant, he owns all the upside and has passed along all the downside to investors. I wish I could buy stock in LRM, but of course he won't sell because he can raise funds like an IPO without giving up equity! This is an amazing business model, LabRat deserves credit for turning his bitcoin and mining expertise into one of the greatest start-ups I've ever seen ($1m raised, no secured liabilities, and NO equity lost is ridiculously amazing). But the bigger points remained, should we, as investors, allow such a venture to exist?
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I don't want to start a fight over this, I just wanted it to be clear I didn't have your back on this one. I know MPOE-PR is not to everyone's taste, but I have respect for his/her opinions (particularly when phrased nicely, however rare this might be), whatever the gender, as I do yours. I know my fantasy of us all just getting along is deluded as this is not only the internet but also the bitcointalk forum, but hey, you've gotta try, right?

Valiant effort though! Let's keep this back on topic, I don't believe MPOE-PR offers any valuable criticism to this "Security" that is all.

You can see the bitterness she and he (Yes they are a duo) possess when it comes to any competition in the marketplace. Their "Know-it-all" attitude might have worked in the early bitcoin days.

I shall put them back on ignore (Not sure why I ever took them off, maybe I have a obsession with watching people destroy themselves with words)

Fair enough, and yes, bringing things back on topic is rarely a bad thing! Hopefully we'll get word on (the relevant bits of) this discussion at some point...
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about Wink

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

You must be lost, the kitchen isn't in this thread.

a) this is childish sexism and is totally uncalled for, but this is the internet so there is little point in me arguing against it other than to say you are not voicing my opinion, but also

b) you are aware that MPOE-PR is not female despite his avatar, right?

She refused to bring you a sandwich didn't she.

-1



+1 Smiley

I don't want to start a fight over this, I just wanted it to be clear I didn't have your back on this one. I know MPOE-PR is not to everyone's taste, but I have respect for his/her opinions (particularly when phrased nicely, however rare this might be), whatever the gender, as I do yours. I know my fantasy of us all just getting along is deluded as this is not only the internet but also the bitcointalk forum, but hey, you've gotta try, right?
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about Wink

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

You must be lost, the kitchen isn't in this thread.

a) this is childish sexism and is totally uncalled for, but this is the internet so there is little point in me arguing against it other than to say you are not voicing my opinion, but also

b) you are aware that MPOE-PR is not female despite his avatar, right?

She refused to bring you a sandwich didn't she.

-1



+1 Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about Wink

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

You must be lost, the kitchen isn't in this thread.

a) this is childish sexism and is totally uncalled for, but this is the internet so there is little point in me arguing against it other than to say you are not voicing my opinion, but also

b) you are aware that MPOE-PR is not female despite his avatar, right?

She refused to bring you a sandwich didn't she.

-1
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about Wink

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

You must be lost, the kitchen isn't in this thread.

a) this is childish sexism and is totally uncalled for, but this is the internet so there is little point in me arguing against it other than to say you are not voicing my opinion, but also

b) you are aware that MPOE-PR is not female despite his avatar, right?
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about Wink

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

To be fair, I'm not encouraging anything here, and I was just curious who you thought the shills were. I understand the pros and cons of mining contracts vs holding hardware myself, and am choosing to do a bit of both. Whatever anyone says, there are certain advantages in pooling money to buy hardware together, despite the multiple downside to this, on both a financial and network level.

I had read your previous posts on this thread, and didn't think you were giving much of an argument against LRM itself, especially not in the posts you link to above, but I have enjoyed things you've written in the past and was just looking to educate myself further, as you're often so keen to advise people to do (not that I'm particularly uneducated, I've done my fair share of "lurking moar", but anyone who doesn't think they can continue to learn is foolish).

Still curious who you think the shills are btw...
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about Wink

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
The thing about mining bonds is that they pay in BTC and not fiat. So if the btc to $ price was to crash we would all lose a lot of $ however if BTC rises then an income in BTC is worth alot of $.  Mining shares are a gamble, nobody knows the btc to $ rate in the future.

 Place your bets now Smiley

This is exactly why the service which I am offering does not involve shares, bonds or any kind of securities.

Straight up mining contracts; as long as mining is profitable, we will damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead!

Smiley

My $.02.

The Lost Dutchman.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
The thing about mining bonds is that they pay in BTC and not fiat. So if the btc to $ price was to crash we would all lose a lot of $ however if BTC rises then an income in BTC is worth alot of $.  Mining shares are a gamble, nobody knows the btc to $ rate in the future.

 Place your bets now Smiley
full member
Activity: 453
Merit: 101
RISE WITH RAYS FOR THE FUTURE
Well, until Lab_Rat comes up with something of his own... 

http://labratstats.herokuapp.com/

Note, the pool is calculating this hashrate based on submitted shares, so it is subject to good/bad luck of the miner and therefore fluctuates a bit.

Nice. Thanx!
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
So are you saying that the current rate (~.18)is overvalued? 

I am buying mining bonds on the assumption that I will get at least the same amount back over the next 6-12 months with hopefully some profit at the end.  The only thing that could really screw things up is if the BTC to USD rate crashes and doesn't recover. There are a lot of mining companies about and I have shares in a few to spread the risk.  All the mining companies I invest in have a re-investment scheme to keep the bonds paying out over the long term.  Lets hope Lab_Rat can keep ahead of the curve!

How do you envisage attracting the same amount back when you are currently receiving ~0.6% a week (based on 0.18 share price), compounded by whats about to happen within the mining world (+++magnitudes of increases)?

full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
So are you saying that the current rate (~.18)is overvalued? 
Whether that represents good value depends on many things; one of which is how quickly the hashrate of a share can be brought up to 'reasonable' levels. Do people believe paying $40/GH is a good investment in a climate of skyrocking difficulty? LRM is nowhere near 500MH/share at the moment and it will be quite some time before it gets there.

Even if $40/GH is considered 'good value' today (which I don't believe it is), a month from now it would be worth $20/GH simply because difficulty has increased by a factor of 2 by then.

If a LRM share is worth 0.18BTC today, what do you think it will be worth a month from now when the same hashrate generates only 1/2 the income it does today?

Indeed.

I'm no longer holding LRM shares. Made a nice little profit and that's good enough for me.
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
So are you saying that the current rate (~.18)is overvalued? 
Whether that represents good value depends on many things; one of which is how quickly the hashrate of a share can be brought up to 'reasonable' levels. Do people believe paying $40/GH is a good investment in a climate of skyrocking difficulty? LRM is nowhere near 500MH/share at the moment and it will be quite some time before it gets there.

Even if $40/GH is considered 'good value' today (which I don't believe it is), a month from now it would be worth $20/GH simply because difficulty has increased by a factor of 2 by then.

If a LRM share is worth 0.18BTC today, what do you think it will be worth a month from now when the same hashrate generates only 1/2 the income it does today?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
So are you saying that the current rate (~.18)is overvalued? 

I am buying mining bonds on the assumption that I will get at least the same amount back over the next 6-12 months with hopefully some profit at the end.  The only thing that could really screw things up is if the BTC to USD rate crashes and doesn't recover. There are a lot of mining companies about and I have shares in a few to spread the risk.  All the mining companies I invest in have a re-investment scheme to keep the bonds paying out over the long term.  Lets hope Lab_Rat can keep ahead of the curve!
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